What IS Lens? | Stani Kulechov, Lens Protocol & Aave

[00:00] - Have you ever seen the meme, [00:02] That's Lady Gaga saying... [00:05] Bus. [00:05] Club. [00:06] Another bus. Another location. Oh, no. I haven't. Bus. Club. Again, all in leather. No one believed in me. You've never seen that? That is us. [00:17] Hello, I'm Natasha Hoskins. I'm Dina Burke. And this is Boys Club. Wait, is it just Boys Club? It's just Boys Club. The Boys Club podcast? No. No. [00:31] Just boy stuff. [00:32] Dina, what's Boys Club? Boys Club is a social collective that is working to bring new voices to the new – working very hard. Working very hard. To bring new voices to the new internet. The reason I'm so practiced with that is because of the booth at ETH Denver. We just got back from ETH Denver. Every type of person coming up to the booth and asking that question. I've met so many different types of human beings over the past few days. It was a lot of fun. [01:01] Wait, can I actually finish? This is what I've been saying at the booth. Oh, okay. A social club or social collective or social DAO, depending on what type of flavor. Vibe you're getting. If I'm feeling DAO vibes, I'll throw that in. [01:13] That's... [01:14] working or thinking about bringing new voices to the new internet. And I'll say we do that through. [01:20] Events. [01:21] newsletters, podcasts. [01:24] We have a Discord chat. We hang out. And we're really interested in the intersection of crypto and Web3, all this amazing technology that you're seeing at this conference.

[01:34] And how that intersects with culture and how it shows up in our lives, in art and fashion and music and all these ways. Cool. That was landing for people. Totally, totally landing for people. I was then saying, would you like to buy a sweatshirt that's $75? [01:47] So that was 8th Denver. One-two punch. One-two punch. Good cop, bad cop situation. My favorite question was, okay, it's $75 to wear a sweatshirt. What does that come with? A sweatshirt. That's what that comes with. [02:09] So the level of chaos. I mean, I don't know. We're going to have to do a feeling check-in about 8th Denver at some point. The level of schlepping and chaos that... [02:17] was at eThenver and continues to be in between eThenver and South by Southwest is unprecedented. We have a tolerance for Schlepp that... [02:29] I can't even begin to talk about. It's 8 p.m. I'm driving to Ikea to pick up a white table and some frames that we're going to put into the booth. It's 9 p.m. We're schlepping these 40-pound boxes filled with sweatshirts and sweatpants from the rental car into the conference center, wrangling all these. It's 6.30 a.m. We're headed to FedEx to make some prints to add them to a plexiglass signage. It's 7 a.m. [02:59] and sweatpants onto these racks, setting up a store. And then it's Sunday or it's Saturday afternoon. We're finishing and we're getting all the boxes repacked. It's Sunday. It's Sunday 4.30 p.m. And Dina and I are driving to what we thought was a recycling center to throw out a step and repeat because we can't ship it back to either of our homes. And it's not a recycling center. It's a quarry of some kind. So then we're driving around Denver looking for a garbage can where we won't get in trouble.

[03:29] we did find one so anyway if you find a step and repeat in a garbage can outside denver that was us and i'm sorry anyway we're gonna need to do some feelings check-in that feelings check-in is not now [03:40] Because there's no time for feelings. We have absolutely no bandwidth for any feelings. We had a great interview, though. This was an interview with Stani. [03:50] You intro. Okay, Stani Kulichov, who's the founder of Ave... [03:55] and lens protocol. [03:57] the gentlest, kindest man. I know we say that about a lot of men that come on our podcast, but I think he takes a take. He was so generous with his time and with his explanations. [04:09] We recorded this live in the ETH Denver... [04:12] podcast studio. It's going to be a decentralized experience. The sound quality is surprising for it being a podcast booth. Um, but we did what we can. You know what? It's immersive. You're going to feel like you're there. It's an immersive podcast experience at ETH Denver. Um, but we talk about decentralized social media. We talk a little bit about Aave. Um, and we talk about what [04:42] a human being and what he's building is really interesting. And he's such a believer in what he's building. And I love talking to people who are excited about what they're putting out into the world. So... [04:52] Really great listen. Enjoy going into the inside of ETH Denver while you listen to this.

[05:10] GM. [05:13] Stani. [05:15] How are you doing? Good, good. [05:16] Yeah? [05:17] Good. We're-- [05:19] Really excited that you're here. [05:21] Oh. We're so honored. It's super cool to be here. [05:24] Okay, so we want to warm up with a few questions. [05:28] Rapid fire. [05:30] We do a thing on the podcast called the feelings check-in. [05:33] We're going to do a feelings check-in with Stani at East Denver. [05:37] Real quick. [05:39] You kind of talked about this a lot. [05:41] Conference is really intense. [05:42] We cry a lot at conferences. Overwhelming. Me too. Overwhelming amount of shit. [05:48] Okay, so what's your primary feeling, like coming into this conference, being here the first few days? [05:54] In the beginning, it was very overwhelming for sure, a lot of people. And people I haven't met for years as well. [06:02] been here and [06:03] It's quite nice to see that the community is scoring quite a lot. [06:06] That's a positive sign, but I think down the line, [06:10] seeing how much the space is growing and how much excitement there is. [06:16] And that it's not only about finance, but there's different kinds of use cases that people are creating. [06:21] has been very fascinating to follow. So I kind of feel that [06:25] It's starting to take off. [06:28] It's kind of funny because WebTree is a bit of like a [06:32] it relies on cycles, right? So you have like a bull market and bear market, and this feels more of like a build market. [06:39] It's a builder's market at this point. And everyone has so many ideas to build.

[06:43] And it's just like... [06:45] It's inspirational to talk to people. And they're so young. I met one developer who was 13. [06:52] with building of Aave protocol. - 13? - That's incredible. - A baby. - Yeah. Baby builder. - That's amazing. - Okay, what's been the most surprising thing that you've seen? [07:07] in the past day here at East Denver. [07:09] - Thank you. [07:10] Most surprising thing is how, you know, even this amount of people, how everyone is so nice, so polite and how [07:19] well organized the event is. So I've- Yeah, shout out to the East Denver team for that. Incredible. Yeah. John and his team has done incredible work. It's just [07:27] And a lot of enthusiasm, people are here to just [07:30] not to hang, but actually to learn and [07:34] get inspired and-- [07:35] understand what's new. So it's [07:37] For me, it's very pleasant. [07:40] Yeah, great. Okay, last... [07:42] Last 8th Denver question. [07:43] What has been the best merch? [07:46] Well, it's hard to decide between Ovid and Lens Orange, but... Stani, I have to tell you. And Boys Club. Oh, there we go. Okay, okay. I love it. Right answer, right answer. Okay, so we definitely want to get into decentralized social media and talk about Lens. [08:03] Um, [08:04] But I do have like a really burning question for you. [08:07] And I need you to explain it to me as though I were a baby builder child. [08:12] What is Abe?

[08:13] Oh, that's-- well, [08:16] Aave is a way to [08:20] I would say to grow your value, your assets that you have. So basically, [08:26] It's a way to see your cryptographic money grow. [08:28] That's one way I explain. [08:31] You do it in a way where you don't have, you don't need to give to any people your funds, you're putting into this magic place. [08:42] in the blockchain. And those funds are going to start to grow. Well, Stani, that was actually a really generous explanation. Great job. That was really great because you could have been, Dex, [08:55] this, that, you could have gone in, but you didn't. And that was great. How are you tracking on Ovic? - I'm so, I'm fully sold. Thank you, okay, I appreciate that. - Okay, so Lens. [09:08] Lens. Incredible merch, incredible sweatshirt. [09:12] What is lens protocol? [09:15] Lens, I explain it's basically, it's a layer that makes, [09:21] Web3 social. So today when we interact with crypto, you know, it's sending transactions, receiving transactions, but [09:28] What's missing is that you can actually go and comment things, share things, [09:34] even create a profile. [09:35] Lens helps you to create a profile, create your audience, and share things. [09:41] to your audience, and that can be anything. It can be music NFTs,

[09:45] that can be just transactions you find on chain or news you find, you know, [09:50] over the internet. So it's a way to make everything we do on blockchain more social. [09:57] So is Lens [09:58] The... [09:59] the application or is it the [10:03] Layer B. [10:06] We never build an application, but there's a few applications out there already. There's one open source, one lancer. I posted today, my first post. Genesis post. I need to collect. You can collect all the posts [10:21] There's walls. [10:23] And [10:24] There's also Orb. Orb is built by a small team of three. [10:29] and they're focusing on also improving video content [10:33] There's a lot of cool things there. And then there's Butterfly, it's also built by one developer. So the teams that actually are building these applications are very small. [10:42] and they're focusing different audiences. There's some interesting music applications and music players [10:48] Um... [10:48] I've seen a lot of creators using Lens Protocol and all these applications to basically share and distribute their content. [10:56] They might be minting on-- [10:59] let's say, in a music NFT platform, but then they might have their audience in actually [11:05] over Lens protocol and they share the content. - So it's interesting that you describe Lens from the perspective of [11:11] Um, [11:12] making the blockchain more social versus saying,

[11:16] we're decentralizing social media. Is there a reason that you made that distinction? [11:20] Yeah, because we all here are like decent rising, right? So we're at this event and in our space where [11:28] we're always trying to focus on decentralization. [11:31] It's a clear goal to us, but to explain to the users [11:36] what kind of a benefit or what's the value added. [11:40] For me, when I look at the blockchain, it's very transactional, a lot of things happen [11:45] um [11:46] But there isn't the concept of actually how we make this [11:50] or social. [11:51] and I think it's more easier to approach as well. [11:54] The fact that we are using the blockchain [11:56] on securing your profile and securing your follower graph. So, unlike normally when you create an online presence over the internet, [12:05] you know, anyone can, you know, your number in a database, but when it's secured by [12:09] You know, the blockchain, [12:11] you have the guarantees to your profile so you have that [12:15] sense of ownership. [12:16] But yeah, I think it's just like an easy way to explain what we were trying to vision with Lens. [12:23] So I'd love to understand more like the ownership component for basically the consumer. [12:29] just using [12:30] Myself as an example, [12:32] I have Natasha.lens. I'm like posting on Lenser. [12:36] And then there's like [12:37] other applications that are using Lens is the idea that all of the [12:42] my profile is like [12:44] portable to these other, okay. It's portable but also what I think, it's actually quite cool. So you could

[12:51] You could create a song, for example, or create a video, or even this podcast, you can upload it [12:57] I hope you upload it into Land. We will, definitely. Sure. And it can be accessed to any of the applications being built. [13:03] But the applications can also decide [13:06] how they want to curate the content. So maybe they want to [13:09] only podcasts and music or only [13:12] podcast, for example. [13:13] And that's the beauty of the system. You have this ocean of data, and you can choose [13:20] what you want to actually pick from this ocean, [13:22] and make it into a [13:25] a form that is appealing to users. [13:28] I hope personally that what Lens allows us to do and because users own their [13:33] social media presence, what will happen is that [13:36] there's more freedom. So you have flexibility that you might [13:40] like some other application more, and you don't need to leave your [13:43] let's say, podcast audience behind. Because today, if you create your audience, for example, in Spotify, [13:48] you can't port it elsewhere. [13:51] Okay, that makes a lot of sense. It makes a lot of sense. [13:54] So... [13:55] I'm curious. [13:57] The-- [13:59] Let's take LensTher, for example, as the DAP that we're interfacing with Lens Protocol with right now. [14:06] were signing transactions at every point. [14:09] and [14:10] we're at peace with that because we're here at Ethanbur, and we're into crypto, we're into Web3. [14:16] But I'm curious. [14:18] for [14:19] a person or for a consumer who maybe doesn't care

[14:22] that much about data autonomy and cares a lot about convenience. [14:27] What's the path for them? [14:29] to [14:30] using lens in a meaningful way. [14:32] Yeah, so interestingly now, even in Lencer and all these applications, you can switch a dispatcher on, which means that [14:39] You don't need to sign transactions anymore, like a few months ago. And then you don't need to... [14:45] pay, for example, for gas. [14:47] Meaning that when you post content on any of these applications on Lens, it feels like [14:52] you know [14:54] an application over the internet, a normal social media application. And the way we also do it is that [14:59] we have this queue. So whenever any of these applications are posting content, [15:05] They go to the queue and we reflect [15:08] the actions right away, but the blockchain logic happens in the back end. So what we actually did is that we [15:14] said that the consumers [15:16] they need to get whatever they want right away, and then the actual blockchain magic has to happen in the backend. That's something that users don't need to know. [15:23] And now, I think the last thing that we're trying to solve is that [15:27] How we get someone who doesn't have a [15:30] it's a metamask or a wallet and how we can get them actually [15:34] quickly to [15:37] claim a profile, and start using these applications. [15:40] That's the next thing we're focusing upon. [15:43] that you can just log in with an email and start [15:47] posting or shitposting. Great, great, okay. Well, shitposting, perfect, perfect for my next question.

[15:53] So I post a lot of... [15:55] of shit on Twitter that I do not want [15:59] in the internet for perpetuity on blockchain. [16:03] What, how does that... [16:04] work with lens, [16:06] protocols. Like, is it on the blockchain forever, all of the things that I've [16:09] Posted. [16:10] Only if you want to. So basically, [16:13] The Lens Protocol gives you guarantees. So if you create, let's say, [16:17] interesting piece of music that you want to ensure that you created it, it exists forever, [16:23] and there's a provenance for that. [16:26] What you can do is that you can post that content [16:29] Um... [16:30] all the way to on-chain, which means also that you can create different kinds of rules that [16:34] who can collect that content. For example, your followers between 1 to 100, [16:40] Maybe, um... [16:42] Also somewhat... [16:43] some other additional rules that they collected your previous content so you can actually reward the users and create interesting [16:48] engagement mechanisms in a verified way because you have blockchain verified data. [16:54] But then if you don't want to post it on chain, you can also post into data availability layer, like RV, for example. But I'm not also opposed to posting if it's just pure content in... [17:08] just a database because [17:10] The idea of Lens Protocol is to empower creators and builders and the end users [17:18] And I think the most valuable thing is that you can create an on-chain profile. [17:22] and have that ownership and the follow-up draft.

[17:25] But it's up to the user to decide [17:27] you know, [17:28] what kind of like, [17:29] where they want to post the content end of the day. I think that makes sense, yeah. I think for me it's like I'm interested in [17:35] Dino.lens and [17:37] also not being... [17:41] paying rent to Mark Zuckerberg. And so I'm more interested in sort of like the ownership on the profile side. I think the content... [17:50] is really interesting for certain use cases on chain. [17:54] But certainly not all. And certainly, like, we say a lot of dumb stuff, and I wouldn't want that, like, immortalized on the blockchain forever. Yeah, exactly. I think that... [18:04] But I'm curious what you think... [18:07] the killer DAP is? Like, what's going to be the thing that brings it to this next inflection point? And is it going to be... [18:15] Will it be like, okay, we've made an incredible version of Twitter that's decentralized and it's built on Lens? Or is it going to be something completely like that we can't even imagine what it is? And it's a new sort of, [18:26] Okay. [18:27] way to be social in this world [18:30] What do you think? What's your suspicion? [18:32] I think, especially in the previously and even looking now, a lot of [18:37] the Web3 social space is trying to kind of like a [18:40] So, like how to be a decenter, Twitter or... [18:44] decentralized Instagram, but like [18:46] The issue with that idea is that those platforms, they have very strong networks. It's very hard to compete with them. [18:54] The network effects and also the fact that they have a lot of data algorithms and they

[19:00] play that to their benefit. [19:02] Where you want to find growth is actually new use cases and new interest graphs. [19:07] But also, I could see even just an integration into a [19:12] a platform or let's say like a Web3 application that just [19:16] It's very popular. [19:17] but lack of that social layer might be the biggest use case. So kind of like, but since I'm here and they're sort of builders, I want to encourage people to actually build just novel use cases. And we want to make it quite easy because building traditionally like a social media application is sort of effort. So you have to create network effects, but when you... [19:41] built on top of lens or you integrate, you already get 110,000 profiles and [19:47] We have three native users, people who hold NFTs, you know, they have [19:51] token balances and they're familiar to the ecosystem. [19:56] It's basically a way to get audience to your application, whatever it is. [20:01] or you know, [20:03] expand that audience itself. [20:06] It solves the chicken or egg problem when you're starting a social media project from scratch. You're like, okay, this is only interesting if other people are using it. That's where the utility is. Yeah. [20:15] to get people to use it. Yeah, there's an issue there. So that's cool. That's amazing that that's sort of built in. That's implicit in. Yeah, it's very Web3. The audience is very Web3. [20:24] And I think it's going to be for a while. I think at some point when it becomes easier to onboard users, [20:29] There's more technical scalability.

[20:32] we might see less Web3 native users that they are just using [20:35] as they would use internet. - That's what we're really interested in, to be honest. Before you came, we were talking... - Adoption. - Yeah, exactly. We were having a feelings check-in about kind of like, what's boys clubs? [20:47] role in [20:49] this type of space and, you know, we're... [20:52] we're a social yao and it's not like [20:54] were [20:55] building a protocol ourselves, though certainly a bunch of people in our community are. [21:00] But I think we were just talking [21:03] man, [21:03] we want to be reaching that person who [21:07] is [21:10] not necessarily in love with the tech, but is interested in connecting with another person in an interesting and more meaningful way and hopefully [21:18] something like Lens, something that's built on top of Lens can help [21:21] enable that connection. It's more about sort of what that side of it, that human side of it than it is the tech. [21:26] Yeah, and I'm really curious for you. [21:29] Coming from building Aave and [21:32] a DeFi, being in DeFi, and then moving into Lens and having conviction around [21:38] the need for blockchain to be more social. Where did that come from for you? And like, what made you have conviction to move into building Lens as well? [21:46] Well, [21:47] We've been always kind of thinking about building access. And very early we wanted to kind of like [21:52] democratize finance. That was our early Eatland, which was the first protocol that we built. [21:59] Um... [21:59] I will not say vision, but maybe like a slogan,

[22:02] Um... [22:03] And down the line, that's-- [22:05] thinking has been around all the time. [22:08] What we want to build is access to financial, social opportunities, and [22:13] And the way we want to build is that whatever technologies we deploy, [22:18] They just bring equal opportunity across [22:21] And that's the beauty of Arve because [22:24] you know, any part of the world has the same opportunity to do the same [22:28] financial aspect with the same rules. [22:31] And with the lens protocol, [22:33] We're just extending the concept of [22:36] everyone getting an ownership online of their personal [22:41] online presence and part of the identity. [22:44] Lens itself is not an identity solution. [22:49] No. [22:49] Stunny.lens as a handle, but [22:52] In version 2, for example, you can attach DNS, you can attach [22:56] some other handles. You can create your own namespace if you want to. [22:59] So-- [23:00] For us, it's more about building access [23:02] and getting more people. And also, one interesting point is that we want these protocols to be governed by the users that are using them on an ongoing basis. So that's more important. [23:15] Let's go. [23:16] Yeah. [23:17] Thanks. [23:17] Okay, so... [23:19] We have a lot of builders in our community, [23:23] Give them some inspiration. Like what would you love to see built on top of Lens that maybe you would love to do, but don't have the time for or you think are just great ideas and you don't see being built yet?

[23:35] Yeah, I mean, there's a couple of categories. So more of like, something I want to see is applications that [23:41] social applications that [23:44] reduce mental health issues and basically changing [23:47] the way we think about value. Because if you think about Instagram and all these likes, [23:52] You know, [23:53] those metrics can be very hard to people. [23:57] But if you can create different kinds of algorithms that actually value something else than [24:01] You know, numbers like likes could be very interesting. [24:05] creating algorithms that are actually [24:09] more empowering for the users. And by that, what's fascinating is you can find new creators [24:15] quicker by an algorithm and also elevate them [24:20] Um... [24:20] for different audiences. I think that's super cool. And something that's, I think, [24:26] talking to the aspect of adoption, [24:29] just putting media into [24:33] creating media applications. So for example, ways to read content, unlock interesting [24:39] access magazines, journals, [24:42] things that normal people are interested in. You know, it's like, I think you should check this idea, Dumpling TV. It has like channels and stuff. And you see like, like very interesting content. So building for people who. [24:55] you know, aren't, [24:56] like anyone can actually get engaged. [24:59] um well stani i am so we're so honored that you wanted to talk to us and we're so excited about what

[25:06] what you're building and it's great to be here today. Any closing thoughts? - I think just like what do you, [25:12] most excited about. [25:13] Right now. [25:15] Right now, just to be here, honestly, I'm still kind of in a moment of realizing how big [25:22] the space has become. [25:24] And also realizing how much we actually need to fix things regarding the adoption [25:29] making it easier to manage like a wallet or abstracting the blockchain away and just [25:34] making everything we have here [25:36] also less technical, you know, and more consumer friendlier. That's what we're here for. That's what I'm excited about. I'm excited about Boys Club. Thanks, Donnie. Thanks so much for coming. Thank you so much. [25:54] Draft tweets. Draft tweets. [25:57] You just said something really funny in the podcast and I can't stop thinking about it. So that was great. Okay. This is an old, old tweet. Um, [26:06] Not that old, but... [26:07] It is a draft from a while ago, but it's brought back up by the alert that I got post-Eath Denver that said... [26:15] you've been exposed to COVID. Um, [26:18] And this was when, do you remember when there were like anti-vaxxers who were like posting themselves shaking and they were like Pfizer like symptoms and then the internet went wild posting their version of Pfizer.

[26:36] Sure, sure. Yeah, whatever. A vaccine. And then there's this amazing meme. [26:43] of shock. [26:44] shimming uh-huh and then a cat shimming do you know this meme i do yeah and i my draft tweet is that meme [26:50] The two shimming and me saying, oh my gosh, I didn't know Shaq had a bad reaction to the vaccine. [26:55] Well, not the most timely draft tweet we've ever heard. Months, months ago. I mean, months. It was so good. Months, yeah. But I don't know why. Just like... You should have clicked send at the time. There's no... [27:09] There's no scenario that you send that today. None. None. But it was funny at the time and I just didn't, couldn't get it together. I just couldn't get it together. [27:17] What about you? [27:18] What do you got going on? [27:19] You actually have a draft tweet that you've been working on for Boys Club for a while. All day. [27:25] So the draft tweet... Do you want to... Sure. Yeah, yeah. Actually, great. Key it up. The draft tweet is... [27:31] So we're launching our zine [27:34] I... [27:35] in two days. I don't know when this podcast is going to go out. So it's launched. We do put it out, but we're not sure when we'll get it out. The zine is either launched or it's not launched. And so we're doing some like social teasers for it. And I've had a concept. Promotion, marketing. For a promo. Building bus. We're booth babes. And the... [27:56] The tweet concept is... [27:59] We haven't revealed our cover star for the scene. And it's a big moment. Yes. It's our very first cover star. She looks incredible. Incredible. It's a great photo. We have not revealed it to anyone yet. So it's a big moment. So the tweet is...

[28:13] Name. [28:14] Guess who the Boys Club cover star is? Wrong answers only. And I have been on the struggle bus trying to find the best photo to put into... [28:25] that tweet as a prompt to get other people to put their photos in. Yes. Yes. So... [28:31] You recommended Bethany Frankel. [28:33] I've been looking for photos of her. The problem is a bad photo... [28:38] And it's mean. Like you're making fun of her too much. A good photo is like not funny. [28:44] A good photo is... It can be funny. I think Edney's with the right person. I don't know if it's Bethany Frankel. The other person I think that it could be is Elsie from... [28:52] The OC or what was that show called? Yeah, yeah. The Hills. Laguna Beach. The other thing I thought, I've been throwing some good stuff at you and you're just not clicking with it. The cast of Sex and the City. That's for example. The cast of The Hills. The Hills. [29:04] Like a cover star can be many people. [29:06] Okay, it's singular. Okay, who's on the cover of Boys Club? [29:11] zine who who we're drafting here who's tizzit um i was like maybe we'll go fictional character [29:17] So I pulled Portia from White Lotus. White Lotus. But in all the stills from the show, she looks really sad. And so then all of a sudden it becomes mean again. Right. It's borderline mean. And then also there's a note in there where it's like, [29:34] You guys didn't land. [29:37] Portia. Like that. She'd be a great guy. Right, right, right, right, right, right, right. Totally. And then I was like, we'll go totally fictional, we'll go meme character. And you didn't seem to like that. I didn't think that was funny. Okay.

[29:47] So we're at a standstill. Here we are. [29:50] Check our tweeter to find out who we picked. Bye. Bye.