Navigating the Creator Economy, Platform Wars, and Internet Culture | Kai Gayoso, Range Media

[00:00] Have you ever seen the TikTok eyebrow optimization filter? I did it and mine was like, the arch was higher, like it needs to arch higher. [00:09] Okay. And then end sooner and also start like it was like a whole other eyebrow. Wow. Are you going to go for it? [00:14] I'm kind of curious. Well, I'm excited for your eyebrow journey. I'm going to be like, next time we talk, it's going to be like, they're going to be like super thin because you're just trying to get the arch. Welcome to Boys Club Interviews. This is a show where we bring on people much smarter than us to talk about the new internet. I'm Natasha Hoskins. I'm Dina Burke. And this is Boys Club. Wait, is it just Boys Club? It's just Boys Club. The Boys Club podcast? No. Just Boys Club. Hi. Hey. Welcome. [00:44] Great to have you. Excited to just dig into this podcast here. I am trying to remember... [00:54] how we naturally ask people to like and subscribe to this podcast but it's feeling very unnatural [01:00] David Hoffman sent us a text that said, David Hoffman from Bankless fame. The king of Bankless. Sent us a text and said... [01:12] Hey, [01:14] You guys have to ask people to [01:17] like and subscribe and rate the podcast. [01:21] Not at the very end of the podcast, pre-recorded, which is what we have now, but at the beginning of the podcast. Right.

[01:30] While people are still fresh and feeling good. And so that was some... [01:35] intellectual property IP from the bankless firm that was shared with us that we are now implementing. Thank you, team over there. And so, yeah, please rate [01:47] and review this podcast wherever it is that you get it. Great. Also, we are launching an AI podcast, as we talked about, as we will be talking about, that is launching on YouTube very soon. [02:00] This week? [02:01] she says with a insane lack of confidence in her voice. [02:06] Um, so if you want to see that subscribe to YouTube. So that's what's going on. We had a great, [02:13] guest on our podcast. [02:15] today. [02:16] Kai Gaioso, who is [02:19] the co-head of digital at Range Media Partners. Now, you will have never heard of Range Media, [02:26] And that's totally fine. It does not make it any less compelling as a place. It's so compelling. It's very compelling. They represent all of the celebrities. Hit me. Bradley Cooper. [02:42] Gabrielle Union. Oh, man. I saw the funniest Bradley Cooper video of it actually wasn't a funny video. It was kind of a funny video him It was a table read [02:51] I can only assume was a table read for A Star is Born. Okay, great. I'm so here for it already. [02:58] This story isn't really going anywhere except that...

[03:02] Lady Gaga, it was kind of a video that was both showcasing Lady Gaga's insane talent. She was singing. Oh, no. Was she singing at her table read? She was singing at her table read. I hate that. I mean, she was incredible. I know, but I can't handle that. [03:18] But it was also, yes, the subtext was, can you believe what she's doing? Was he like earnestly watching her? He was sitting right next to her, like gazing at her. Oh, I've seen this. I've seen this. And I passed it. In love with it. Because I cannot watch it. It makes me feel so deeply... [03:35] uncomfortable in my own body. [03:37] But she's very talented and he's amazing. Anyway, all the stars, all the stars you could think of, really, they represent. And so we had a great conversation with Kai about the creator economy, sort of the state of the union for digital creators. [03:53] Platform wars what's sort of his perspective on internet culture and how that affects what's happening in web three and the Creator space as it pertains to sort of digital ownership and collectibles and it was just great conversation I think he has such a [04:10] a optimistic, [04:12] and sober perspective and truly loves the internet. And it's so fun to talk to people who [04:20] You're just a kindred spirit with them because you both love the same thing. So I think he has really insightful perspective on what's happening in the space and how it's going to evolve and what it means for small creators and big creators alike. So give it a listen.

[04:40] On today's show, we have Kai Gaioso. Kai is a partner and co-head of digital at range media partners where his roster includes Valkyrie, Gabrielle Union, Brooklyn Beckham, and M. Night Shyamalan. He has created digital strategies for clients resulting in two number one films at the box office, a number one New York Times bestseller, and over two billion impressions for client initiatives. Previously, he was a strategic partner manager at Facebook, a number one New York Times, a [05:06] Oversaw the top monetizing roster in partnerships globally, resulting in nine figures in revenue for both the company and his partners. Nice. I love this. He had a start in the UTA mailroom in September. Amazing. Amazing. Oh, God. It's funny when you like write your bio, you're like, oh, this like sounds nice on paper. And then when someone reads it to you, I'm like, God, I got to relax. No, it's perfect. I love it. It's so great. It's so great. Hey, Kai, we're so excited to have you on. Welcome. Thank you. I like I've been talking to my therapist a lot. By the way, if you're listening, if therapy, [05:36] is on your docket, I think it's worth trying for everybody. That's not a medical recommendation. But I was actually going on this and I was like, yeah, I hope I don't say something stupid. For the record, we say stupid stuff on this podcast. [05:48] all the time. So I'm sure you won't. But if you happen to, you'll be in good company. Okay, so really impressive bio, really impressive, dude. [05:57] I am sure that there's a lot of people who are listening who have no idea what that job title means. [06:02] We all know the influencers and the names, but you're kind of like this invisible hand making a lot of that work. Can you tell me, can you explain to me what it is you do and like what range media is? Yeah, yeah, I'll start with management first. So it's exactly sort of as you said, we're fully in a client's corner. There's different types of representation for clients. There's agencies like UTA, CA, WME.

[06:27] There's publicists. [06:28] who sort of handle a lot of the press and things like that and then [06:32] management, which [06:34] It's funny because I've actually done all three jobs. [06:36] fun fact, like my first three years in entertainment, I did a year at an agency, a year at a PR company, and then a year in management before I went over to Facebook. And I remember everyone's like, you cannot keep jumping. And I was like, no, no, no, like, you're so right, I shouldn't. And then I would take another job. But I think like, you sort of are able to see the holistic ecosystem around a talent and how, like, sort of [06:54] when each person's doing their job. [06:57] the machine's working. So like I love management because it is a bit of everything. Um, [07:03] An agency's main job is to procure work, [07:05] bringing brand deals or just deals across the board and publicist is brand construction and narrative so are they in vogue fast company tech crunch things like that um and managers kind of like the guy in the corner who's like seeing all the things like you know in like iron man where he has like the 3d thing he's like pulling all the avengers like that's how i how i like in this job so it's everything from like [07:27] making sure my clients' flights are booked on time and they know what they're doing and they have car service that they've eaten before they go on stage so they can present the best version of themselves too. [07:37] all right, in two years, we're going to have like a large CPG business that we're building right now. [07:44] in those two years, what are the things that we can do from a TV show to an appearance to [07:50] digital content businesses that we can start that sort of all ladder up into that. So, [07:54] I love management. It's my favorite of the three. So you're telling me that a manager...

[08:00] Made this happen. This is the Rhodes, Hailey Bieber that I'm upset. Like we're like genuinely obsessed with. It's like problematic how much I love it. [08:08] This was a manager. So actually, like, fun fact, and I actually like this part, we might need to like fact check, but like I know for fact Haley doesn't have a manager. I know she's an agent. So someone on her team. OK, oh, cool. You work with a company that can like help. [08:22] make it actually businesses but yeah like it's one of those things where when it's [08:28] When you don't necessarily, oh, this is going to be controversial. We're already starting. When you don't have like a manager that necessarily sees the long-term vision of something, it can feel like a glorified babysitter. And like sometimes that's the job, you know, where it's like, you need to get this post up. We were supposed to post 30 minutes ago. And then I'm going to badger you until the post is up because it's. [08:45] legally and contractually obligated. [08:47] But I do think like the best version of the shop and the [08:50] like my day-to-day, which I'm really lucky about, is like, [08:54] We're taking something as precious as a talent's personal brand and figuring out how can we scale this into different verticals? How can we continue to monetize this? [09:03] you're really building something in a way that at its best is affecting culture. So that's why I like love that. And then like, I have great relationships with, with, [09:11] the rest of my clients' teams on the agency and publicist side. So it's always fun. It's like, [09:15] It's like a different friend group every time. And you're all sort of like trying to make something happen. But I like being in the center of it. [09:20] That's awesome. I love it. I want to zoom a little bit out to your thoughts on the buzziest term in the world. We hear a lot about the creator economy. It's thrown around a lot. It's $100 billion industry, which is absolutely crazy. So when we say creator economy, what comes up for you? How would you define it?

[09:40] So I think there's now the current definition, right? Which is like anyone that sort of has any creative output, how can they essentially monetize that? So like the new definition includes... [09:50] subsec writers and journalists and [09:53] Honestly, like editors and a lot and thumbnail artists, it's a lot of like the holistic ecosystem of [09:59] Like, [10:00] talent and creative, not just on-screen talent, and the businesses that support them and the tooling. [10:06] the classic definition of re [10:08] honestly, BC funding into the space is YouTubers and sort of like talent coming off of the social platforms that are able to like curate their sort of audience and community via their own content. [10:18] which is [10:19] It's really funny to be like the old guy now that's like back in my day. [10:24] It was really, really sort of like interesting to sort of see the space. Are you triggered by the... [10:29] Phrase creator economy or are you a piece of it? Yeah, I think like especially when it was like the thing like what was that like 2019 maybe 2020? It was just like such a thing where it's like I'm gonna liken it to you planned the best birthday party of all time and like all of a sudden like 300 people you didn't invite show up. I can already feel the shit coming from this statement but like. [10:51] It is like one of those things where it's like, [10:54] when something becomes truly mainstream, right, which is basically like, [10:58] Creators used to be sort of like a subdivision of entertainment, truthfully. And that's just both from perception and the fact that like, [11:05] traditional Hollywood never could have really wrapped their head around like these dinky kids on YouTube that were like creating massive businesses that were making a ton of money that like

[11:12] when put into positions of traditional Hollywood, whether that's acting or being on TV or movies and things like that, didn't really perform. So it never really made sense. And then of course, like once people actually understood the financial opportunity around the entire talent set, like became a thing, it still comes down to the fact that like when we used to do due diligence for companies, they would pitch like the entire world, we're going to change the world for creator, the [11:35] The C-suite or the leadership would have never worked with the creators at all. And I think we're sort of like seeing the aftermath right now, which is we have a really, really interesting creator ecosystem that has now been flooded with VC funding in addition to the actual platform wars that are happening. So the creator economy as a stance as a whole, like is still a huge, massive financial opportunity. I just think we're all trying to wrap our head around like what a creator is anymore, which is fun. [11:57] for all of us. You spoke to this a little bit, but [12:00] It's evolved so much from celebrity as like actor, singer, singer, [12:05] basically that being the only way that you could be a creator or be someone who had fandom to, as you're saying, like TikTok and Substack and Alison Roman. Like it just sort of runs the gamut of like who now can be a star or who can be someone who has influence. And I think a lot of that has happened because... [12:25] of platform development and different ways in which people could become [12:30] curate and cultivate a community or an audience, but I'm curious what you think, where that change happened and why that's happened. [12:37] I just wrote about this and I'm hoping that it's out by the time this comes out. If it's not, it will come out at some point within 48 hours of this episode coming out. If you look at sort of like how the creator sort of ecosystem even started, right? Which is like, it was essentially a bunch of kids in their bedroom speaking direct to camera.

[12:52] broadcasting to an audience, they had no idea they were about to create or was out there. And it was really earnest. That was me in college watching Troye Sivan or Connor Frant had talked about like, a math test that they had taken that day and why that was important to them. And it was so personal and so granular. And it's like, [13:09] engagement and connection it felt very very real and also if you look at youtube at that time which is basically the only place these creators were coming up it's a step chart of grow a hundred thousand followers you're seeing your views and engagement also similarly grow at like a reasonable pace and then like as that started to diversify which is like apocalypse which is like when all the advertisers pulled out of youtube and then they started like favoring family-friendly content which is like kind of the first real instance of a platform sort of [13:35] hand of Godding the type of content that will succeed in a way that was actually trackable by the public. And people started going to Instagram, Twitter, Vine. Oh, R.A.P. Vine. Oh, the best. Loved. Best. Like the fucking greatest. And then eventually TikTok, you're seeing [13:49] What was the most straightforward, essentially one-to-one relationship of you're gaining 100 subscribers on YouTube. So you were seeing the incremental growth of 100 views sort of as you were growing into what was a very strong foundational business. Yet immediately fractured by like the fact that now there were 25 different ways to interact with the talent. You could watch an Ember Chamberlain video on YouTube, then see the behind the scenes on TikTok, then see her commentary on Twitter. What used to be one 10,000 hour podcast. [14:16] relationship, right? Like you would spend 10,000 hours with these sound just watching videos, engaging, tracking them, blah, blah, blah, turned into now 10,000 one hour relationships over

[14:26] probably a larger audience in numbers. The relationship between creator and their audience has like fundamentally changed. There was that anecdote from VidCon of like, [14:34] That poor creator who had like 2 million on TikTok or something. And then she had me and greet and like no one showed up. Oh, yeah. One that's so depressing. Like I feel so bad for her because I can only imagine that's really hard to go through. I think it speaks to like the lack of predictability of what a follower count even is anymore. What do you, given that, what do you recommend... [14:53] for [14:54] your [14:54] clients, like appreciating that, like, let's say TikTok, the algorithm is hot and fast and you can grow like at a [15:03] incredible rate there but like it might be a cheaper relationship that you have with the people who are calling you like what what do you say when you [15:10] Your clients are asking for a friend. Asking for a friend. Dang it. It's, um... [15:14] I think the most important thing that any creator by any definition can have right now is a platform agnostic audience. An email list converts the most on merch drops than any promotion on any social. [15:26] And it's like, [15:27] If you look at it from like a distribution angle, right? Which is like, if you have a million followers on... [15:31] let's say TikTok, but only 100,000 of your followers are seeing it. And then only 10,000 of them care. [15:37] and then only a thousand of them actually buy. [15:40] what you're trying to sell. One, who are you actually making content for? And two, like, there's got to be some better way to actually reach [15:47] whatever the largest amount of people that would actually care to purchase would be. The top line thing is like, you should be on every platform and it really sucks. It's really hard. And I think like we're seeing creator burnout, like nobody's ever seen before because you do have to make

[16:00] your eight to 10 minute cut for YouTube with your three individual one minute highlights for TikTok and your 15 seconds for your story. It's a lot more minute granular management of the actual execution of content, which just weighs on like what are essentially single operator businesses. So it can just be a lot in a perfect world. [16:18] The creator should have it present everywhere and be considered active. [16:22] And then go where the community you're most inspired to build around is, which is like [16:26] If your audience is smaller on one platform, but the comments are better, [16:30] The sales are better. Who cares if you're continuing to grow at X amount of velocity on a different platform? [16:36] if that's not actually contributing to the actual business. Would love to expand more on... [16:44] the relationship... [16:45] that [16:46] creators and you have to these platforms themselves. You worked at Facebook. What I've been really struck by in our conversation so far is your ability to really soberly and objectively look at the downsides of our current media landscape, especially as it pertains to these platforms and all the issues that the algorithms bring into the [17:08] the equation bias them being designed to like keep us on the platform and unhealthy ways. And you sort of can hold that in your head. And also like what I get from you is a real sense of optimism for what digital creators can produce. I'm so curious how you reconcile that and [17:27] like how you maintain the optimism in the face of that.

[17:30] I think it comes down to a few things. One, on the personal level, and you go back to like the really like true OG sort of like real gen one of creators, which is like, [17:39] Tyler Oakley, Jack Harry's, and Finn Harry's, and Casper Lee. It just came out of this place of like the original people that were on YouTube the most, and engaging with these creators were looking to [17:50] feel included at the end of the day to see the i guess like [17:54] personal scale to which that like [17:57] creators can help or be a substitute friend or exist within their audience's lives as like a fixture. It's really inspiring. I remember when like Troye Sivan first came out on YouTube and like I was [18:08] closeted and young and like that meant the world to me. I think the power to which of like, [18:13] what is technically, I guess you can say, unedited in the sense that it is for them talking straight to camera. [18:18] There's just something so personal about the relationship when it's real that you just like cannot mimic anywhere else. And that's the kind of thing where it's like. [18:24] I'll always view that as like the top of creator-dom. It's essentially a bunch of normal people who dare to think that their stories were scalable, relatable, and authentic. And they found that. To me, that's always going to be like my North star. So I will unfortunately always be like overly optimistic on what creators can do for the world. I remember I was working with a creator and they'd made their first hundred thousand dollars on the platform in a month. [18:47] and we had been like working really hard to like fix all their thumbnails and stuff like that and blah blah blah and then we had our meeting and i was like oh my god i was like you made 92 000 this month that's crazy and i was like what are you gonna do with it and they're like [18:59] I'm gonna pay for my parents' house. And I just started crying.

[19:01] To me, I think it's hard when you have to reason with all of the [19:06] downstream ramifications of algorithms and platforms and content moderation sort of mean for the larger stake of community. But at the end of the day, like I feel so drawn to working with creators because it's just [19:18] they're [19:18] It really is like the kid you sit next to in math class or your neighbor down the street who just got a DSLR for the first time or your friend that just like thinks he's the funniest person in the world. And it's like, I bet other people think I'm funny. Like I can't not chase that. I feel really lucky. I get to do that every day. [19:34] - Thank you. [19:34] In talking to you, I'm struck by... [19:37] What makes for a creator that... [19:40] people are drawn to and that cultivate an audience is really the sense of them being themselves and finding the [19:47] platforms that amplify that version of them in the most clear and legible way for that creator. When you think about [19:56] fandom and how fandom has changed in that relationship of like I hate to use this word but authenticity with the creator and their relationship to them obviously what has happened is that's gotten closer and closer and closer and now it feels like oh I'm sitting in my bedroom with this person and we are connecting over this shared experience or the shared reality when I look at that in relationship to the landscape of web 3 and how now we're sort of porting over fandom and [20:26] into relationships of ownership and digital collectibles and all of these other areas that you can now engage or engage.

[20:34] participate with a brand or an influencer, there's some things that are really [20:38] really cool about that and exciting and then there's some things that i'm like man this sort of feels like [20:42] maybe problematic or maybe not quite right. And I'd love to hear from you as you're seeing these new ways of engagement. [20:49] through blockchain and through Web3. [20:52] What do you see as opportunities for the people you work with and for you as someone who just loves Internet culture? And where do you see? [21:00] pitfalls that are not as exciting to you. [21:03] Yeah, it's... [21:05] It's funny. So I'll admit this and hope that nobody flames me for this, but I was so staunchly anti-Krepta until January of last year. It was a mix of... [21:16] Just like, you know, when like, [21:18] Okay, how am I going to put this in a way that won't cancel me? It was one of those things where, like, I... [21:24] love internet and digital culture and I love like the use cases of it, right? Like I thought Constitution DAO was genius. And like the perfect example of like, [21:33] how you can essentially create infrastructure to build a quick turn community around an initiative and like really rally people in a way that like [21:40] was meaningful to them personally. [21:43] And then there was just like with a bunch of like the PFP stuff and like... [21:47] It just preaching the choir, dude. You don't need to like couch it. We totally get it. And talk about it very openly on this podcast. I just like found it to be one of those things where if we're gonna look at this from like a purely, I don't know, person level, I think a lot of people were really excited to have something like, [22:04] to be defined by and like crypto, especially in that version of the market was like very, both innovative, intelligent. There were a ton of connotations of like, if you were into crypto in the right way, like you were the guy. And I think like.

[22:16] in [22:18] The current state, I don't want to say that I think the market is good, but I do think we've seen the sentiment of like now that like the hype has more or less gone away, the real builders and the real use cases are starting to show in the same way of now that sort of the attention is away from the creator economy. We're actually getting somewhere right now. Things I'm most excited about are... [22:37] community building activation tools, the ability to actually create a network around an idea. [22:42] is really interesting to me. [22:43] There's like a couple of projects like, oh God, now I'm really going to narc myself. Do you know, do you guys know what cutility is or what that means? [22:50] I don't. It's essentially like how cute a project is. Like the actual place in the market that it's in is because it's so fucking cute. I am a cutility assassin. I buy into all of these fucking projects because I think they're so cute and that's everything from like Feneliers to Klanosaurus. [23:05] It's one of those things where it's like, if it looks like it could be a plush toy, like I probably wouldn't buy it. Oh, where's this? I'm like, I find it really fun. And in just like a way that I'm like, it scratches the nostalgia of Pokemon trading cards. I think like the ability to create and generate IP, create a network of interesting fans and ways to engage with them. All of that is... [23:23] is the actual use case that I think like one will actually help with mass adoption. In addition to how do you make that part of the internet fun again? I think we're going to look back at [23:31] this past year going into like let's say south by 24. the real use cases are finally popping up for my job at least like as i'm sort of explaining the [23:39] potential there to clients and studios and networks and things like that. Like people are still open to it. [23:44] It just like [23:46] We're finally past the point of having to explain why...

[23:49] Insert X project is like the blue chip project and more along lines of like if I'm Universal Studios like I [23:55] what's this sort of web... [23:57] free native [23:59] way to engage with our fans that actually makes sense. So you're finding that [24:03] your clients and partners are like receptive and open still, despite the crypto industry's shortcomings to [24:11] entertain. [24:12] that path? I think it's just like one of those things where it's like, does this actually make sense for me and my business? The two or three, I would say like [24:19] Web3 native [24:21] sort of like partnerships that I have going on right now all did. [24:24] So now it's like we're exploring fan communities for one of my clients. Like... [24:28] through [24:30] honestly like an NFT we're just not calling it an NFT and it's like yeah like take the take the take the scary word out like everyone's like oh this actually makes so much sense [24:38] Yeah. Speaking of, do you think in your heart of hearts, do you believe that Web3 or some of these new media models can? [24:46] open up monetization for the long tail of creators. [24:50] Or do you think like we had a conversation with someone who was like, look, there's always going to be a ton of consolidation at the top. And that just is the way of the world. There's a lot of bad content out there. And there's a small amount of very good content and the money sort of flows that way. [25:04] But I don't know, that's controversial. And I think in Web3, there's a real deep belief that there's like, [25:12] one-on-one, one-to-one monetization that's possible. And curious if you buy that and if you sort of believe that. It's sort of exactly what you said of like,

[25:21] Who are the... [25:23] companies, conglomerates, or decision makers at the top that are [25:27] owning the actual, I would say, flow of monetization. If I have a new fan monetization tool for a musical artist, [25:35] and like we want an integration with Spotify because Spotify is already in with all the major labels [25:41] it will still flow through the major labels. So no matter what good that we could possibly do for an individual artist, it won't work. [25:48] or the ecosystem won't take it because you will inevitably end up back at having to defer to the labels. [25:53] what I think is [25:55] going to happen slash I hope happens is that [25:58] the most exciting thing of sort of the tooling that we're building right now. Right. And that's everything for creator tooling, Web3, crypto, fan monetization. All that is basically [26:07] there are kids that are 15 to 18 right now that, [26:11] are so incredibly digitally literate that are learning how to question the system. [26:16] And that literally is like [26:17] Why should I sign with the label when... [26:19] There's this company over here that's promising me actual one-on-one modernization. My fans [26:24] also get a partake in sort of like fractional ownership with the masters. And if the label is going to offer me a million dollars to sign with them for a two record deal, [26:33] I could probably end up making $500,[redacted address], doing this exactly how I want. [26:38] So I don't think that the change is going to come from the top, unfortunately, but I do think that like... [26:43] were sort of sitting on top of what it should be the most digitally literate, the most talented sort of creative base that's sort of come into the world. [26:51] And they're overly aware of a system that wasn't built for their profit to,

[26:56] answer that question fully, I think it's like, [26:58] there's going to be the use cases that break the dam already. [27:02] a and r's at all the labels like look to tick tock to like help find the next big thing blah blah blah all it takes is like [27:08] the next insert artist here to basically be like, I'm actually just going to do this myself. And the minute it gets out that it works, like, [27:15] it becomes the paradigm. I do think we're headed towards an inevitable shift in the conversation of what the actual [27:22] forward-looking progression of individualized monetization looks like, but [27:26] It's going to be to the detriment of the system, but it's going to take talent committing over anything, which is really hard. I'm optimistic that someone will... [27:34] we'll try it and commit. [27:36] and we'll be able to see it from then. [27:38] Okay. [27:39] So in closing, I want to hear from you. You're a deeply online person. [27:44] And we love that. We love that for you. We love that for us. What are some things that are just bringing you like major joy right now on the internet? [27:52] Oh, I have a lot. On Twitter, there's one called Shirts That Go Hard. [27:57] Okay. Link in show notes. [28:00] They just post like really ridiculous shirts and I send them to all my friends every day and they're like, please stop. So like this one I sent to people every day and it says, [28:08] How can I read the room? I'm fucking illiterate. I'm sure. And I thought it's so funny. Um, [28:16] Huh? [28:16] I also love, I'm in a bunch of really weird niches on TikTok. One is sheep shearing TikTok and like it's a mix of ASMR, the main, [28:25] Girl, I wish I really should know the name, but I really just get invested into the sheep. Um,

[28:30] like if sheep don't shave their wool they suffocate from the heat so you're actually them and like it's like a minute talking about just like oh you know it we've had a really strong winter here we found this one and like well and it's just like she and then the sheep looks so naked at the end and it's so funny to me and i just like love it and there's like a secret sheep shearing tiktok discord that i'm in that has like almost like 30 it's not a secret i guess there's this many but there's like 30 000 people in it oh my god wait are they sheep shears are they fans [29:00] cool and then fans and like the conversations are amazing it's so pure one of them wants like your first line of like gloves and stuff and i know they like sold like 10 000 units and made like 100 grand so i'm just like niche interest like always win um so i love that the internet's great it's where we're like the internet's great the internet is so great cute cute dumb is that what you what you oh no cutility right cutility the cutility of the internet hi thank you so much [29:30] time. [29:30] I hope you guys had fun. I had fun. Thank you so much, Kai. [29:42] Okay, draft tweets. Okay, draft tweets. Tell me. Yeah, okay. I have a couple one I [29:48] was very dark oh no oh no which we'll start there and then we'll go to one that's a little more headed having an existential crisis at the rainforest cafe ask me

[30:00] Have you ever been to a rainforest cafe? Of course, a group in Florida, hotspot, rainforest cafe. It was my first time going to one. I'm shook that you did that. It's so like early 2000s of you. [30:11] yeah well it was my um kid's birthday and he wanted to go there did he love it [30:15] He loved it, but honestly, awful vibes. Horrible. Atrocious. [30:21] really bad and like really poor quality oh totally decor as well like like that's the draw of it is that there's a little like tiger and whatever and i'm like [30:33] This is shoddy. It's the poor man's like Disneyland. Yeah. Cafe. I felt that pretty much. Okay. My second draft tweet is this isn't the wording. The language isn't quite right, but the sentiment is there. I think my husband would leave me for Marianne Williamson, given the chance. [30:49] Dave loves her. Are you serious? I'm serious. Oh my gosh. That's really funny. Imagining Dave leaving you for anyone is just like on its face value. Just a concept I can't get behind because he would never. [31:02] You know? He would never, but he's really drawn to her sort of... [31:08] she's like [31:09] She has what I can only describe as... [31:12] What? She has. She has. [31:16] like a crunchy vibe. [31:19] worldview okay that's like very like love centric okay jives with dave on a certain day and yeah so like i don't know he's just super into it so that's that i love how you're like one super dark and one super light-hearted and the light-hearted one is about your husband leaving you

[31:39] Okay. Bye. Okay. Bye. [31:42] Dina, where are we going to be in September? We are going to be at Permissionless in Austin, Texas. Permissionless too. It's happening. And we're curating the culture track for the conference. So if you're into the stuff we talk about here, you should come and have a good time with us. So email your boss. Tell them that you need to go and buy your ticket now. They will never be as cheap as they are today. And we also have a promo code in our Discord for Boy Scout members. [32:08] Come hang in Austin. [32:13] This is where we make an ask. We're in our call to action era. It's CTA times. Rate and review this podcast. Subscribe to our newsletter. And if you're feeling extra generous, [32:25] Send it to one friend. Thank you for listening. We love you. Bye.