Doing LSD with Mike Demarais, Rainbow Wallet

[00:00] All I know is that I need to get [00:01] more steps in today. [00:03] - Thank you. [00:04] Yesterday, the day of my heart. [00:07] Hello, I'm Natasha Hoskins. I'm Dina Burke. And this is Boys Club. Wait, is it just Boys Club? It's just Boys Club. The Boys Club podcast? No. [00:18] Just boys thought. [00:20] Hello? [00:22] Yeah. [00:23] We're back after a little break. We're back. [00:26] It was nice. New year, new... [00:28] Pod. [00:28] Same podcast, but maybe changing it. I don't know. [00:33] Um... [00:34] We are Natasha and Dina. [00:38] Were the co-founders of Boys Club? [00:40] Tina, what's boys club? [00:42] Boys Club is a community of people who hang out [00:47] Uh, [00:48] online together and who also hang out IRL at different events around the world. And we like to talk about [00:55] The internet. [00:56] And what's happening on the internet? And we have a shiny new website. We have a really great website. That is so gorgeous. Thanks to... [01:05] the people at Capitol and to Tyler. [01:07] a guy at Capitol who helped us with this website, boysclub.vip, you can check out all the things we're doing. [01:16] this podcast, we have a newsletter. You can jump into, uh, apply to the discord. You can check out all the events we're doing. [01:23] Lots of fun stuff. [01:24] Lots of stuff. Yeah. And we're fully caught up on, uh, discord applications. So though it doesn't, it's not instantaneous. It's the, the team does need to review it. Um,

[01:34] It's now if you applied in the past and you didn't get in or... [01:40] I don't know, you've been waiting to refer a friend. Now's the perfect moment. [01:43] Now is the time. Yeah. [01:45] So we had a great episode, but before we dive into this episode... [01:50] We have an exciting development. We have a very exciting development. The Boys Club Media Empire is expanding. And we are adding a new podcast with our smartest friend. [02:02] Blake Finucane. [02:03] Yeah, Blake is very much the brains of the operation. So you guys are all going to learn a lot listening to her podcast. All the things that you don't learn listening to our podcast, you will learn. Exactly. It's called Context Views on Crypto and Culture. And she's looking at this interesting intersection of... [02:25] Um, [02:26] crypto and culture, how it touches media and NFTs and all sorts of different art primarily. [02:33] So some context on Blake is that she thinks she's a... [02:38] So she's a VC and an art historian. [02:42] And she did the, she did her thesis as a graduate student at the University of Vancouver or something like that. [02:50] in 2000, I believe it was 2018 on NFTs. [02:54] So, [02:55] if we're talking about being ahead of the curve. Yeah. She was early. She was early. She was early on the NFT thing. She was early on the NFT thing. And now, and, and, but is also like very deep in art. And so it just brings a really interesting lens to, um,

[03:11] to the conversation around crypto and Web3 and how that relates to culture. So we built a podcast around it. And we're really excited about it. Blake, you're our most... [03:20] Our star, thoughtful and smartest friend. We're going to ship you a mic and you're going to have to start interviewing people. And she reluctantly agreed. So her first season of the podcast, first season is eight episodes. First episode is soon to be out. It is on the same feed. So you just, wherever you're getting this episode, you can get Blake's episode. So context, check it out. [03:50] feedback because our little Blake is our most precious friend and she's an artiste and we want to just protect her at all costs. But no, but we love feedback. I mean, we can handle it. [04:00] Yeah. Send it our way. Send it our way. Yeah. Yeah. Send it to us. Um, okay. So that was Blake, Blake's podcast coming up. Um, we had, uh, [04:09] Mike Demare on the pod from rainbow is from rainbow founder of rainbow. He is a good time. Charlie. Good time. This guy is good time vibes only. And I'm here for it. [04:19] He was like, we like started the podcast. He was like, Hey, I'm just going to like make some coffee really quick. I'll be right back. He was like chatting with us. And I was like, you know, the type of people where you like immediately get on and you're like, Oh, this is going to be fun and easy and just a good time. And it was great. I was really nervous about it. Actually. I was really nervous. You were very, you were like doing all this prep and I was like listening to his old podcast. I was really nervous about, I don't know why you thought he was going to be mean. You were

[04:44] I was worried that he was going to be like, [04:49] Somehow critical of Boys Club for our knowledge and have some gotcha stuff with us, which were the most. Which honestly, he did have a gotcha. He did have a gotcha. He did have a gotcha, but it was a kind gotcha. It was a lighthearted. [05:01] So, yeah, Mike, we talked about LSD and you'll learn what that is later on, as we did in the pod. [05:12] Also had a conversation about NFTs as a loyalty tool, which everyone's talking about right now. And we are as well. And wallets. [05:21] adoption, lots of really interesting stuff there. And then we had a Dow check-in [05:28] where we talked about something called Dow points, which we are rolling out and [05:33] It's to learn about it. You must now listen to the podcast. That's our hook. And that has been, that is a, um, [05:44] Mustard seed. [05:45] to a lot of other things that are now possible for boys club. So I didn't know that was an expression, but well, it's like a biblical expression. I don't know if it's exactly right here. [05:57] Okay. And then we talked about, um, [06:00] Our feelings check in and insecurity that both Natasha and I have about being at sales. Having to sell ourselves. Selling ourselves. Selling. Selling. Just selling generally. Well, selling ourselves on this podcast. Selling our... And we are now open to sponsors. Sponsor us. This is our sales tactic.

[06:20] So, yes. Yeah. I mean, when I say selling ourselves, I'm selling... But it's not just ourselves. Of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the... There's a lot. [06:30] It's a lot of my things. You can see how great we are at it, you guys. [06:34] We're just like sales machines. Okay. So yeah, we had a feeling checking about that in our... [06:41] Just feelings. And then we had some fire draft tweets. So definitely stick around for that. And that's the episode. Check it out. [06:53] On today's pod, we have Mike Demare with us, who is the co-founder of Rainbow, an Ethereum wallet. Welcome, Mike. [07:02] What's up boys? I am so happy to be here. So happy to have you. We're so excited to have you. Okay, so we're going to play Explain the Tweet with you, Mike. [07:13] You tweeted on January 4th, [07:17] first... [07:19] We made them talk about dog money. [07:22] and monkey pictures, [07:24] Now we make them talk about LSD. [07:27] So pretty, pretty cool tweet. Natasha, what's your level of comprehension? Oh, man, I have so many questions, Mike. I have so many questions. Okay, so... [07:37] I I'm wondering who they are really curious and I also think maybe I am they so I feel exposed um I think that uh yeah keep going okay dog money figure doge that feels right monkey pictures apes get that um I am I am my body is a temple and I am the last person to know anything about um LSD so really actually genuinely excited um

[08:05] to hear more about that. So take it away. Tell us. [08:09] Often they, to me, is boomers. And I guess in my mind, there's no better embodiment of a boomer than CNBC's. [08:22] on TV personalities. Okay. So really like one of my most, you know, one of my favorite things about crypto is, [08:30] is... [08:31] is watching the culture bubble up and then sort of force itself upon... [08:39] people who really don't really feel comfortable saying whatever the hell is being said, right? Where it's like, I don't know, one of my favorite things was when the CNBC people like started saying like, [08:49] ape. It's like, oh, they aped into this or just like, and stuff like that. So I just really love when they're sort of just being almost made to say things that they don't really look comfortable saying. Crypto Twitter on Twitter lately, people have been talking about [09:07] uh ls the lsd narrative um lsd discourse talk to us lsd discourse which is far nerdier and more boring than you think but basically uh so have you heard of like staked ethereum yeah um so you know uh basically if you want to stake your own ethereum at home right now like on a little raspberry pi or [09:32] uh [09:33] It's not liquid. So you like lock up your ETH and it's, and it's stuck there. It's not liquid. I can't like just trade you my steak teeth. It's like, it's in that little, that little gizmo.

[09:43] The timeline's been talking about liquid staking derivatives lately, which is basically like, you know, things like LIDO, like L-I-D-O. It's like the large... [09:55] And then, like, you know, Coinbase has CBETH, which is, like, their liquid staking derivative [10:01] Um, [10:02] The Ethereum community tends to pick funny names for things without much consideration for... [10:08] how the people on CNBC are going to end up saying them. Right. Wow. I was really prepared to have a different conversation. A conversation about psychedelics. That's where we're talking. Yeah. I mean, that's like. That's the tweet, though. I guess that's the point. That's why I think it's funny. So that means we're the day. We are the day. We are the day. Yeah. You guys are the day. No. Oh, it's so good. You guys knew it. You guys knew it. I was like, yeah, you know, like Lido, you guys are like, yeah, yeah, yeah. You guys are like with it, except for the like nerdy ass term. Yep. Liquid staking derivatives. [10:38] Yep, yep, yep. Okay. I mean, now I'm curious, though. What is your take on psychedelics? I think psychedelic [10:48] Drugs are really fascinating, to be honest. And it's, you know, the boomers... [10:54] you know, have them scheduled as really serious drugs. But I think that they're worthy of, you know, [11:01] Uh, [11:02] scientific pursuit. I think that they're really interesting. I find them very fascinating. [11:09] Likewise. I don't know. I feel like it's not for me, but I love it for other people. That's kind of how I feel about them generally. It's hard to be in crypto and sort of not vibe with the idea of like individual liberties and sort of like –

[11:23] individual freedoms. Yeah. I think that there's, especially right now, like crypto, Web3 is like attracting people [11:33] attracting people who are excited about innovation and [11:36] open-mindedness and possibility and like a new world and new internet and [11:41] even if it's like relegated [11:44] in your own mind and heart into like technology... [11:48] It's impossible for that not to seep into like other areas of your own belief system or worldview. I think once you start to get into this space more and more. But I'm curious for you, like I am a rainbow person. [12:00] user. Same. We love that. We love that. It's so fun. And you've done a really good job, I think, of like everything from the user experience and like what it looks and feels like to make it feel not crypto. And it seems like that obviously is very intentional and like this, you know, fun aspect of it is very intentional. So I'm curious, yeah, what your perspective is about that and how you sort of what your thinking is around crypto. [12:30] what your wallet looks and feels like. [12:31] We think that getting the user to actually interact [12:37] with the blockchain is the thing that makes them have their aha moment. And that it's kind of, you know, the more fun you can make the experience, the faster you can get the user to that moment. [12:49] software that you use on a regular, like truly daily basis.

[12:56] It's just always better when it's fun, you know? Yeah. [12:59] Yeah. [13:00] I love that. I feel like you have a really unique vantage point. Like, [13:05] As someone who's building a wallet and has been building a wallet for a few years now, you've seen different ways. You're thinking about onboarding all the time. [13:15] Or some version of onboarding, I imagine that's like really front of mind for you and your team. [13:22] Um, [13:24] And you've had Rainbow for a couple years now. And you've seen a few different waves of different [13:30] types of people like coming into the space. Like what's your perspective of like how onboarding, [13:36] is right now and like what you think, where you think we're going with it, like how you think it's going to change in 2023 or 2024. Like I saw some tweet that was like, [13:44] the user wars of 2021 were about like, [13:49] L1s and basically these ecosystems trying to grab people. And in 2024, we're going to see wallet wars, which is kind of adjacent to that question around how we're thinking about onboarding and the next wave of people coming in. But yeah, just curious what your perspective is. [14:04] Totally good question. I think that, so I think that, um, [14:10] Crypto goes in cycles, and it's actually really hard to predict the future. And actually predicting the future is... [14:17] is bad or even trying to because it's really hard to imagine all of the creative things that people are going to be doing a year from now, one sort of like new.

[14:28] like primitives or new constructs kind of get unlocked. And a lot of the things that are interesting today in crypto wouldn't really have been sort of like guessable two years ago. These big brands entering the space and using NFTs, um, [14:47] As a tool or like, you know, involving NFTs as part of their, you know, is it part of their strategy? Yeah. I expect normal people to be collecting or being given these NFTs from brands that they buy. [15:03] interact with. [15:05] So on one hand, you could think, oh, man, like, what is this future that we're walking into here? Are we going to, is this just like... [15:11] spam? Is this just like banner ads all over again? Right? Where all of a sudden, you know, big brands are just going to be like throwing things at you that you don't really want. Right. So I actually, I'm more optimistic. I think that, um, you know, [15:26] some segment of these brands are going to be doing really interesting things. And the way I view it is... [15:34] Say a user collects 15 of these digital collectibles being given to them by major brands. If a single one of those... [15:43] becomes valuable literally in any way. Like as in it was given to them for free and now it's all of a sudden worth $10 even. [15:53] I view that as a massive thing because I view that as basically almost like a gorilla fiat on ramping.

[16:04] lane, right? Where all of a sudden now you have a user who has money in the system and [16:12] And they didn't need to go through hoops. You didn't need to sell that user on... [16:19] add your bank account and buy Ethereum because it's this non, you know, you know, uncensorable like that, right? Like all of a sudden now, though, they have like $10 in their wallet. [16:29] um and i view that as just actually like a really awesome a really interesting essentially like alternative method [16:35] of [16:36] fiat on-ramping. And I get really excited about that, and I view that as being a really cool, interesting opportunity to [16:43] that I think we're going to, I don't know, my bet is that we see that kind of play out over the next like year, year and a half. Yeah, I think that really resonates because my husband, who I've now worked in this space for a year, we had our own NFTs. He's never... [17:01] Not touched it, doesn't have a wallet, didn't. We had a whole supporter tier, didn't participate. He was like, we're good. Whoa. We're fully overexposed. And I was like, okay. And then over Christmas, he got an email from Nike. He's like a big sneaker head, loves Nike, gets like an invite to .swoosh. And he was like, swoosh? Yeah, .swoosh? [17:20] And he like gets it and he's like, oh, I got this invite. [17:23] And he was like, and I was like, no, that's like, you should use the only limited number of people. Like you need to do this. And he was like, he was like, do I have to get a wallet set up? And I was like, I don't know, like go through, go through the flow. And he did it in like.

[17:34] two minutes at breakfast. And he was like, Oh, that's really cool. And I was like, Oh my gosh, like, this is what it took. [17:40] to get to this point for him. And now he's like, quote unquote, onboarded. And I was like, so intrigued in the process. And it was like semi custodial. Like I was like geeking out on the [17:51] I think that really, what you're saying really resonates, because I'm like, okay, this is a person who's had... [17:56] all the exposure that he could possibly have to this space via me and has had no interest. But a brand like Nike has like a loose idea of like, hey, you'll get some drops, you might get early access, like stuff that he's into. And it's worth, you know, going through the process for him to get like, quote unquote, onboarded. [18:18] this, you know, and really seeing what we can do to be a part of this whole, like, onboarding experience. You know, we have this thing that we call Rainbow Kit. It's like this really awesome, really easy to use, like, JavaScript package that lets you add a connect connection. [18:40] wallet experience to your to your DAB. And yeah, we're exploring ways of sort of leveraging Rainbow Kit to make [18:50] sort of like [18:51] Sort of the user story that you just described there of someone sort of who isn't super pilled on crypto, sort of just like wants to accept this thing from a big brand, right? Like how can Rainbow help get that user through the journey faster? Nice, nice, nice, nice. Yeah, I think for me that's like the big unlock for mass adoption is just like...

[19:14] Now I'm curious, has your husband done any follow-up engagement with his Nike tokens? [19:22] I don't know. I have to ask him. I would assume no. The thing that's going to be... [19:28] Where he's going to engage is like, oh, I want these sneakers. This is going to get me... [19:32] ahead of the rest of the list to potentially be able to buy them that are, you know, limited edition or whatever. Like that's going to be, that's going to be the thing that he'll engage with. Like events, I don't know, like him as like a specific person, but that discord user, is he in there? Token gated? Yeah. Like he'll never do that. He's not going to be like an online community guy, but like, yeah, I hate this word. And I'm like, I'm so glad you haven't used [20:02] And that for me, I'm like, oh, when I think about the future of consumer and what tokens and NFTs and all this stuff unlocks for the like commerce and consumer sort of. [20:17] like crossover, there seems like a huge opportunity for adoption there. [20:22] Yeah, it's like I really think that the product market fit of [20:27] NFTs and essentially like hype beast culture is like really... [20:34] there, you know, it's a match made in heaven. I guess I'm almost surprised that it took this long for, [20:40] that industry to really sort of

[20:44] have the self-awareness of that. But yeah, I totally agree that like the real compelling value is stuff like, um, [20:51] Yeah, like getting actual early access to limited edition goods. I totally agree. Yeah. I think like – Dina and I talk about this a lot, but like the act of buying NFTs is a real collector's mindset. Like you have to be a person that wants to collect in order to – we're probably like whatever. [21:11] Yeah. [21:12] um like beanie baby type vibes and shout out to be baby shout out beanie baby yeah um and that like has a ceiling of who's interested in doing that who has that type of behavior and i think like the future at least for the next like what i can see in the next few years is like the nft is not the thing that you buy the nft is the thing that gets you to the thing that you actually want to buy and so um [21:38] I think people like Rainbow and... [21:40] Other companies that are thinking about how do we make that onboarding process smoother and more fun and more engaging are going to be the ones who win because, yeah, right now the other user experiences are just... [21:51] Terrible. So... [21:52] I think that I've always been impressed with one of the leaders over at Shopify. His name is Alex Danko. [22:02] I've always found his articulation of this vision to be just really great and sort of like the most... [22:11] like optimistic,

[22:14] uh interpretation of it right and sort of just like making the case for why uh this is a like fun exciting future for the consumer which i often think is like a very miss uh you know that part of the conversation is often missing right where it's like the big brands are almost like okay cool like we'll do an nft uh and then what right or it's like the the the and then what question is you know [22:40] not asked enough by some of these NFT projects. And I think that Alex Danko's vision for the future, which is very much what you're talking about, of basically like using tokens to do like token gated commerce, right? And sort of like having limited edition product lines that are only accessible to, or at least like given early access to sort of like, [23:06] Yeah, the most like [23:08] loyal, [23:09] Thank you. [23:10] audience members, right? And I view that as like an actually cool future. [23:14] A friend of mine, Tara, who runs a company called CoCreate, they're thinking a lot about this crossover of NFTs and loyalty. And it's all about taking sort of a consumer first angle. It's like, how can I... [23:27] have some portability with my like loyalty rewards going from like my Delta miles to my like, [23:34] Lululemon, like whatever that looks like. That was such a basic example. That was such a boomer reference. It was very boomer. But you know what I mean? It was just like, how can I take what I built up in this one siloed place and move it around to –

[23:51] and have it be sort of like portable or fungible in a way. And I think that that's like, that's really interesting. But I do think that... [23:58] NFTs as a term is kind of toxic. And I think... Oh, yeah? You got some alternates? No, no, I don't at all. And it isn't for me personally, but I do think I'm seeing some of the brands... [24:12] be like, okay, digital, like it's like digital collectible or like they'll, they'll use the language, but not, I'm not opposed to that. I like your digital collectible. I like it. It's not too bad. Yeah. I like that one. [24:22] What do you think about... [24:26] Web3 versus crypto? I'm curious, language-wise, what comes to mind. I guess I... [24:34] I have deep, deep respect for A16Z's [24:40] propaganda wing. I find their propaganda... [24:45] I'm not even joking. I find them to be truly next level with... [24:53] sort of like the chess that they play on the propaganda front. Yeah. And, and, you know, it's like, it's widely, you know, it's like web three as a thing was really like, [25:04] you know, [25:06] like propagated and sort of like [25:09] A16C very much made the term Web3 take off. [25:14] I don't know. I find it, I guess I have mixed feelings about it. On one hand, [25:19] I think that

[25:21] sort of the ambiguousness of the term, the looseness [25:25] of the definition of Web3 sort of therefore like allows a lot of [25:31] stuff to kind of like draft on it or it's like it's easy to kind of like [25:37] I don't know, use it as like a hand wave, right? Like, uh, [25:41] uh yeah you know it's sort of like it sort of like hides it's easy to hide covers all sins crap yeah yeah uh behind what three um but then on the other hand i do you know honestly i'm just like kind of regurgitating like other people's takes that i've [25:56] I mean, aren't we all? Well articulated, yeah, it's true. That's the end of our lives. I've seen people talk about how they like, and I agree with this, that Web3 offered a really interesting out-out. [26:09] for the type of person who might have built a reputation around hating crypto or Bitcoin. So it's like, I don't know, pick a mainstream media outlet. If you're some writer for them, you might have already written about how crypto is a skit, whatever you want to say, and the change in nomenclature allows that person to, [26:35] to sort of shift their opinion without having to sort of... It allows them to save face, basically. I think that that's interesting. I think that also Web3... [26:48] has utility in the sense that it encompasses things that aren't specifically

[26:54] crypto assets. Money. Yeah. I think that things like sign in with Ethereum, the idea of using your Ethereum wallet as a login method for a website, that doesn't really leverage... [27:08] you know, like crypto assets, uh, yet is really freaking cool. And, um, yeah. Uh, but I don't know, I guess like, I'm, I don't know, I'm sort of like using the word crypto more than I maybe would have a year ago, but I'm kind of just like, I sort of selected, I choose the word depending on the audience. Nice. I feel like, yeah, same. Okay. We're going to wrap up here in a second. Favorite crypto meme. [27:34] Oof. [27:35] Or just favorite meme. [27:38] Just it doesn't have to be a favorite meme. Oh, man, that's like such a big question. My favorite. I don't know. I think that probably like pump it loom dart crypt coin. You know what I'm saying? Like pump it. Oh, I don't know this. You're going to have to send it. Yeah, OK. It's like, yeah, it's like it's a little dark. Yeah, you're going to you guys are going to think it's the dumbest. I can't wait. I'm very much looking forward to it. OK, Mike, this is this is so fun. [28:08] you on the spot. We love the Rainbow Zorb. [28:11] I don't know what we call a moment. Partnership? Moment? [28:17] Initiative. And Boys Club would love to take part. How do we do it? Little Boys Club Rainbow Star moment. Oh. [28:23] Oh, let's make that. Yeah, let's make something happen. I think for both y'all and anybody listening.

[28:29] So partnerships at rainbow.me is, you know, if you hit that email address, it's a really special, powerful email address that makes things happen. So, you know, let's be in touch. Let's like plot. Let's get, you know, link up and build. Let's do some scheming. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's link and build, you know, Rainbow Zor Boys Club. [28:52] Let's make something happen. All right. Nice. Nice, nice, nice. All right. Thanks so much, Mike. This was a blast. [29:04] Hi. [29:05] Hey. [29:06] So what's happening in our Dow? Lots is happening in our Dow, actually. [29:11] There is a lot happening in our DAO. [29:15] So [29:16] We are going through a reorg. A reorg. We're doing a restructure. Our dad was reorging. We had a town hall last week. [29:26] Um, [29:27] If you missed it, [29:29] No problem. [29:30] We're going to cover a lot of it here, sort of. [29:33] I mean, high level. [29:34] I don't know. I mean, you should plan to come to the next one. [29:37] Yeah, they're so fun. This one was really fun. It's really good energy. Honestly, I had such a great time. I so dread it. And then I had such a good time. People are the people are the best. The chat is blowing up. It was Jennifer Coolidge themed prior to her Emmy win. So she's having a moment. She's having such a moment. She's sponsored by Duncan. And like, that's amazing. It's perfect.

[30:02] Back to our Dow. So we're restructuring the Dow. [30:06] And... [30:07] The restructure is stemming from... [30:10] we've gotten some clarity about like the wider scope of [30:14] Boys Club. [30:15] And how we're going to approach governance and how we're going to spin entities out and [30:23] with a relationship back to the Dow when they start to have some product market fit. And... [30:29] So we've had some like... [30:30] serious... [30:32] milestones that we've hit around like the roadmap that feel really good. Um, but now we're [30:38] It was feeling really good. And now we're in the trenches of re-orging and that's feeling very overwhelming because there is a massive amount of operational overhead to organize operations. [30:49] People. [30:50] So we're in the middle of that. But the main sort of unlock around all of this has been this thing called DAO points, which we're going to be implementing across our DAO and has opened up a lot for what's possible for us. [31:06] Do you want to talk about that one? I think, sure. I think another... [31:11] I think another like reason for the reorg and sort of [31:15] the work around refining clarity and the sort of spin out strategy for sustainability is also a product of like, [31:24] Just time. [31:25] Like, we're, it's like... [31:27] a year old. I think the Dow is about a year old. And I think that there's,

[31:32] a, um... [31:35] Working in and around tech, there's like just such a like frantic energy around things like launching and shipping all the time and like. [31:45] everything's about velocity and momentum and... [31:48] I think that [31:49] that's fine and appropriate in a lot of instances. But I think there's also like, [31:56] You... [31:57] Like you kind of, at least with our doubt, like we've kind of had to like sit in it. [32:02] for [32:03] a couple months and [32:06] and sort of start to understand like how, like, [32:09] what do we want to do? How do we all want to work together? Like, and that's just like comes from [32:14] time and like, [32:16] I don't think that... [32:17] And I think that that's okay. [32:20] Yeah. I guess. Like, there's a real pressure to do things really fast. And I think we want to ship products really fast. But I think the DAO can... [32:29] evolve, [32:30] naturally... [32:31] At its own pace over time. So yeah, anyway, that feels like part of it as well. Okay, so DAO points. The first thing I want to do is give a huge shout out to the FireEyes DAO. [32:41] In particular, James and Cooper Turley, who were really instrumental in helping us. [32:49] figure like have this unlock around the Dow points. [32:53] To talk about doubt points, I have to talk about how we were originally approaching doubt [32:58] Dow [33:00] points or Dow shares. [33:01] which was that we were sort of like when, when we were doing it sort of on our own,

[33:06] We were like, the only proxy that we had was, [33:11] startup equity cap tables. - Cap tables, yes, totally. - So we're like, okay, [33:17] That was the only mental model that we had to sort of like... [33:22] model the doubt after. And so we're like, okay, using that structure, you know, [33:31] We were like, okay, we put together this whole worksheet and we're like, okay, there's 10 million, let's just call it shares. There's 10 million shares in the Boys Club Dow. Yeah. [33:40] and [33:41] And shares will map to tokens, essentially. Shares will map to tokens. Like, we had always known that, like, we're not ready for a public token launch yet. Like, we really want to make sure the timing's perfect for that and... [33:51] That's not right now, but we knew we needed to have... [33:54] some way to [33:57] distribute sort of [33:59] governance and to sort of have a... [34:05] Um... [34:06] an acknowledgement of contribution. So we knew we needed that like immediately, but, [34:11] And... [34:13] But that wasn't going to be a public token. So we're like kind of in this like funny in-between zone of like, how do we make it work in the interim? [34:19] and [34:20] we were like, okay, Dow points, Dow shares, [34:24] And... [34:25] it's the original thinking was like it's this fixed amount. It's 10 million that we have. [34:31] And that is a pie. And then we're like, okay, let's just start.

[34:37] Divvying up the pie. Yeah. Where... [34:39] A certain percentage goes to the founding team, a certain percentage goes to you and me, a certain percentage goes to... [34:47] Contributors, whatever. And... [34:51] And points were sort of the way we were thinking about them or... [34:55] at this point was... [34:57] It's like your runway. Like we're going to use this as like, [35:00] how we're going to measure the moment of [35:03] runway for boys club. [35:06] Let me actually explain that a little bit more because I think that that's an important distinction where it was like, [35:11] the founding team and the people who are really, really early in the Boys Club now are going to be getting, like, a certain allocation as, like, a quote-unquote token for, like, the very early sweat equity work with starting a Boys Club. And then there was also going to be, like, I want to say, like, 60% of that. [35:30] of the pie was going to be saved for what was essentially going to be a runway, where ongoing, we were going to be pulling from that pool to... [35:41] reward ongoing contributions. So anyone who's contributing to the Dow, basically that 60% was going to be like used... [35:47] as a [35:49] As a fund of points to like dole out over the next couple years or whatever it is that we needed to get to a public token launch. So that – [36:00] And then the tokens for the people who were early, the founding team, you and me, and early contributors –

[36:07] was gonna need to vest. [36:08] Because that was the only way that we could conceptualize how to... [36:14] ensure that like [36:15] the tokens were going, the governance was going to people that were like gonna stick around and that were continuing to like engage in the work. [36:23] Anyway, it was just like super messy and it felt like... [36:28] Everyone just started getting... [36:30] really concerned about the numbers, of course. And we were too. And like... [36:34] And also, it was like... [36:37] it felt like a bad match. Like we were like, this isn't working. Like for all of the things that the Dow is supposed to be, like it's supposed to be this like flexible and, um, like a thing someone can come in and out of and something that like you can contribute to and come in and for like a season for a season and get governance and ownership and then come leave and come back. And it was just like, we're mapping this like very, um, [37:04] Rigid thing. Yeah, rigid thing onto this very loose thing. And so that was, I think, showed up. The tension of that showed up in many different ways. And it showed up in people being like, this doesn't... I don't know that I feel good about where I'm sitting on this, like, quote-unquote pie that we all have. I don't know that, like, this works for me in the way that I want to engage with Boys Club. And honestly, it didn't really feel good for either of us. Like, we're like, this doesn't feel quite right for us either. So... [37:34] Started to... And this was... [37:37] a really, it was very stressful. It was very stressful, yeah. It was a very stressful situation.

[37:42] period of trying to one like leading up to figuring it out because we were like [37:47] Just there's no, there's no roadmap. There's no one. I think related to the roadmap was like, especially in the vesting piece for the early team, um, [37:56] was like... [37:59] No one's employed full time by boys club yet. So holding people accountable for work in a vesting type relationship is like impossible. Impossible. Impossible. [38:07] Who knows how that was going to work? Yeah. [38:10] For lots of different reasons wrong, too rigid. [38:14] Whatever. [38:15] Not the way to think about it. We explained this to James and Cooper. [38:20] And they're like, do you mind if we throw this whole thing out and start again? And we're like, please, let's do it. So anyway, they have they proposed this thing called Dow points, which the fundamental difference is that it's an uncapped supply chain. [38:37] of dial points, [38:38] and it's inflationary. So there's some distribution that happens [38:44] to reward contributors retroactively. So of course everyone who's contributed up to Boys Club up until this point [38:50] will be acknowledged in that, that, that, um, [38:53] the Dow points distribution. And then, but most importantly, it's like all about what [38:58] it's all about like the, [39:00] a recognition of the current [39:02] Um... [39:03] your current contributions and, and, [39:05] Yeah. And that's reflected in [39:09] the sort of big difference is [39:11] that

[39:12] It's inflationary. So right now we're going to give like whatever, however many numbers of Dow points out in a quarter or next month or whatever. That number that we're giving out actually increases. [39:23] So that people, contributors who are coming into Boys Club, like in a six months, they actually have a really... [39:32] possible path to... [39:35] collecting like meaningful governance in boys club. [39:39] by [39:40] contribute. It's not like they're coming in and they look at all the founding team points or whatever and they're like, man, I'm never going to get to that point. Why would I even contribute? It's like if they stick around and they do the work and they're like really – [39:50] committed and devoted, then [39:52] they have a path and I think [39:56] It being uncapped means that no one is sitting around the table being like, this is my percentage. And it takes it out of it being this heavily financial fixed asset, which it isn't. [40:07] It absolutely is not. And it – [40:10] it puts it into this much more fluid [40:13] Okay, if I'm here and I continue to stick around, like I can continue to accrue this thing that when there is a public token launch will map onto that public token distribution. Yeah. [40:25] I don't know. [40:26] Yeah. That's where we landed. And [40:30] It opened up a whole world for us around how we bring in contributors, how we can organize around this. And so we're feeling good about it, but it also...

[40:44] It means we have a lot to implement. So that's what's happening in our Dallas week. [40:48] There it is. [40:48] There it is. [40:57] Hi. [40:57] Hey, it's time for some feelings. [40:59] It's time for some feelings. I think we're having a similar feeling. [41:04] Similar feeling. [41:07] Around... [41:07] Selling. [41:09] Yes. We need to sell. Sales. Sales. [41:13] So part of this job is selling things. We have to sell... [41:19] We have to sell like event sponsorships. We have to sell media sponsorships. We have to sell... [41:28] uh, I don't know, lots of different things, lots of different things, get some money in our magazine to do. Yeah. To do the things that we want to do. We got to get the money in. So, [41:39] Um... [41:42] It is. [41:42] is challenging. [41:47] Mm-hmm. [41:47] Um, [41:48] I think you're a better salesperson than I am. [41:53] I thank you. I appreciate that. I do think I'm a good salesperson when it's not, um, [41:59] Personal. My thing, yes. It's so much harder when it's your thing. [42:03] It's so personal and I'm so easily, [42:09] Like, nah, it's fine. Actually, never mind. Don't even worry about it. [42:14] Oh, when they're like, I don't know. And you're like, cool. No, no worries. Yeah, no worries. Absolutely. I totally understand that you don't want to spend money on this. So it makes it really tough to...

[42:26] And I just like need to channel when I'm selling other things that aren't my own thing. [42:32] I need to channel that same energy. Like it's not personal. [42:35] We're just talking. You don't need to be offended. I don't need to be offended. Where can we meet? Where's a good place for us to all get mutual value out of this? [42:43] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have this funny feeling where I'm like, man... [42:47] I wish [42:49] Like in some of these like sales conversations that we're having, I'm like, I just wish... [42:54] It... [42:55] I wish it was like just [42:57] in some ways, just like a lot more clinical where people don't feel like they have to like dance around. Mm hmm. [43:03] But you could. [43:05] You could be like... [43:07] This is it. This is what it is. I know. And you know what that is, like me feeling like that, is because it's a mirror to myself. Because I'm taking it so personally. And I'm so emotional about it. And I'm so hung up on like everything. And so I'm looking at the other person. [43:23] Just grow up, be a better business person. And like, this is a business transaction when I'm just saying that to myself. Yeah, totally. Ooh, ooh, ooh. Yeah, I know. That's rich. So I don't know. [43:37] Maybe we should take a YouTube sales course. Oh, I thought you were going to say propanol. [43:42] No, I don't think we need that. I don't get like... [43:45] I don't get like nervous in that, like in pitching or anything like that. It's not, it doesn't come down to the pitch moment. It's the negotiation moment for me. [43:53] I can pitch anything, but like when... [43:55] When we start talking about dollars or ETH.

[43:59] I'm like, yeah. [44:00] I can't. [44:02] I can't deal with it. [44:03] Yeah. I think that... [44:06] Thank you. [44:07] You have to be pushy. And I don't feel comfortable being pushy. [44:11] Yeah, that's... You have to be a little bit pushy. Yeah, you do have to be pushy. And you have to be willing to accept that, like, people... [44:18] Might not like you. I don't know. [44:19] Yeah. [44:21] I mean, with you, I can like see the moment is coming when it's about, the money is about to come and like, [44:30] It's just the life is draining out of your face. And I'm just like, oh, God. I'm like sweating thinking about it right now. It's like an imaginary scenario that we've dreamed up. And I'm like, oh, I can't even deal with it. [44:42] I like you really, I see it and I'm like, Oh no. Um, [44:47] And like, it kind of makes me nervous. Cause then I'm like, oh no, like I'm now we're all nervous. And then like the whole room is nervous because we're all like, oh no. And so, cause I'm really trying to figure out like, why is this, why am I so, why is it so hard to do? And I think it's partially because. [45:07] you're nervous and then I get nervous. I think it's partially because it's me. We're like, sponsor this podcast. Like, sponsor me talking every week. It's like, that's so cringe. And then the third is like, [45:21] I think... [45:22] What I have found is... [45:25] with web three marketing specifically, right? [45:28] Is that...

[45:29] Most... [45:30] of these teams, [45:33] Don't fully understand a marketing funnel. [45:36] So you're having to educate people. [45:38] these teams on like literally how marketing works. Like, [45:42] There's brand marketing, top of funnel, da, da, da. Like you need all these exposures to your customer, all this stuff that like [45:49] they don't get [45:51] or they have a very like [45:54] myopic view of what they think quote unquote like marketing is or what their acquisition budget is and like [46:00] a lot of those things aren't quite a fit with boys club, even though they're like, we want to do this. We want to make it work. We see the value in you and your community. And then we're like, cool. But like, [46:10] So that's also very awkward because they're like, you're having to like teach. It's like a teachable moment on top of being like... [46:17] And it's us. And we're the answer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just really uncomfortable sometimes. Man, there's also this funny thing that happens where I have both – [46:28] a wildly inflated sense of value for boys club. At the same time in my head, I'm holding that wildly inflated sense of value with the idea that it's worth nothing at all. Like it's both things are totally true in my head. And so that's why when I'm in this like conversation about money and someone pushes back, I'm like, of course. Yeah. Of course it's not worth anything. It's like validating. It's validating like your deepest fear that there's not, there's no value here. There's nothing here. Yeah. Yeah. [46:57] So anyway, I don't know what the solution is, but we need...

[47:01] to [47:03] grow up. We need to grow up. We do. We need to grow up about it. We need to [47:08] put some cold water in our face and just be like, I think it also... [47:12] I think it stems from me being uncomfortable and, [47:16] Like there's moments where I'm just really uncomfortable talking about money. [47:19] Like, [47:20] I'm just like, I don't see that in you. I actually think that you have what it takes to be a great salesperson. Oh, thank you. Thank you. I really do. I really do think that. I think that you have. [47:30] You have all the raw materials. You just need to stitch it all together. I don't know what the blocker is with boys. There is a block with Boys Club that I just like – [47:38] I don't know if it's like industry specific where I'm like, [47:41] I have no concept for how much money these people have. None. No. No concept. And so it's very hard to like come in with like conviction around like this is a fair price. When I'm like what are we working with? Like where are we at in the universe? [47:56] It's all over the map, like literally all over the map. We'll have conversations with partners where I'm like, you guys are flush with cash. And they're like, yeah, it's been a really bear market, really bad quarter. And I'm like, are you just saying that? Or like, you really have no more money left? Like, I don't know. Yeah. So it's... [48:14] It's tough. It's tough. I think it's tough climate to be selling. Sure. Sure. Yeah. Recession. Recession. [48:22] Um... [48:23] Everything is weird. [48:27] So we got learnings. Okay. Bye.

[48:40] Draft tweets? [48:42] Yeah. [48:45] Okay, I have a little bit of a draft that has several drafts within it. [48:50] Because the subject is the same? [48:53] Okay. But I'm trying to get at. A couple of different shots at the same point. Yes, exactly. Okay. So I'm going to go for it. I'm going to read all three of them and then we can. Okay, great. Okay. [49:04] First one. [49:05] I'm sorry, but I hate all of your war rings. [49:08] That's the first one. The second one. If you're wondering if you are a narcissist, remove your aura ring. And then lastly, woman obsessed with data privacy won't shut the fuck up about her aura ring. That's the last one. It's so good. It is so good. Actually, I have been thinking about that where I'm like, man, what is the hypocrisy in all of us? [49:38] me um privacy like maxis and then walking around with an aura ring walking around with an aura ring or it's not only collecting all of our biometric data but also tracking our location yeah it knows everything about you everything it knows everything i i sometimes i wake up in the middle of the night and it's like sometimes it's red because and that's when you know it's like and i'm like [49:56] It's doing the work overnight, just constantly. [50:00] So yeah, that's hilarious. I love that. Okay. I'm going to, I'm just going to actually, I'm going to tweet it right now. [50:05] I mean, I think I hope people know that we're not like fighting about it. [50:09] Oh, people literally think we're in a public feud about your aura ring.

[50:14] Can you imagine? That's an insane thing to think. Okay. [50:23] Mine. I have a lot. I really have a lot. Um, wow. That's a great, you're in a creative headspace. I am in a creative, I am. My, uh, Twitter chakra is open. Um, so, uh, [50:36] Well, topical. Okay. This is why am I in a submissive relationship with my ordering? But the actual, the original tweet, which is like probably too saucy. [50:47] So do you know anything about like BDSM culture? I mean, like the most... [50:53] like Christian level of it that you could imagine. [50:57] Okay, so there's like... [50:59] Things like dom and sub relationships. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the sort of the culture around... [51:06] I... [51:07] You're doxing yourself. You're doxing yourself. [51:12] There's a way that it shows up online where you capitalize on it. [51:17] the D and you do a slash and then you do a lowercase s. Okay. So like, [51:22] It's like man looking for a woman or whatever. No, no, no. It's like... [51:26] when you're talking about dominant sexual relationships, like on like... [51:29] Like fetish forms or like whatever. No, no. But I'm saying like when you're on classifieds, when you're on like... [51:34] Back in the day when they had... Yes, yes, yes, yes. I know what you're talking about. Same sort of format. [51:40] Same format. Okay. [51:41] Capital D slash S. Okay. Lowercase S. Great. That's like a real dog whistle for people who like are into it. No Dom and Sub who are into it.

[51:50] So the original tweet was... [51:52] why am I in a D slash ass relationship with my or ring? But I thought like, it's too niche. I mean, or not only is it too niche, it's like, or it's HR violation. [52:01] I think actually the bigger concern is that... I'm in a submissive relationship. You're talking... Well, that... But you're also sort of... [52:13] there's an assumption someone can make about that. If someone's making a true... That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. Is that like... [52:19] It's too much. It's pretty funny. I mean, you could just say I'm in a submissive relationship when I order a ring. That's that's very funny. [52:27] So a couple more. Actually, maybe I'll say one more. No, you should say them. Yeah. Okay. I have one more. [52:34] Um, [52:37] Which I'll explain afterwards. In my cottage cheese era. Parentheses threateningly. So... [52:44] - Here's what I've been thinking about all week. I have not been able to get this tweet out of my mind. - Okay. - Is that when I start buying cottage cheese, [52:51] from the grocery store, it's like, it's... [52:54] it becomes my entire personality. Yeah, I can see that. I like almost sent you a photo the other day of my lunch because I was having cottage cheese and like cherry tomatoes or whatever. And the text I actually had drafted, I had the photo and I had a text after it that said, my name is Bella Hadid, which is... [53:15] Bye. [53:16] which is kind of a tic-tac thing but it's also like worked on its own yeah um so yeah i don't know what it is but when i started eating cottage cheese i just want to talk about it constantly i know but like you're sort of like that with like any you're sort of like that with everything like especially when it comes to food you like are all all in all in yeah there's no wavering you're just like fully committed to it so that checks out but cottage cheese is like

[53:41] particularly [53:43] Why? What grip does it have to make it... It feels like a problematic food. So I can see how you could be so... You're so committed to it and you're an evangelist for it. I'm such an evangelist for it. I've been having it with... [54:00] a little bit of olive oil and salt and pepper with my... [54:04] Rye Vita Cracker for lunch. It's having a moment. I saw some people posting about it on Instagram the other day. Yeah, I think cottage cheese is having a moment. Oh, well, it's, I mean, January. New year, new body, new everything. Yeah, new cottage cheese moment. [54:17] Wow, great. This is a good, I'm really pleased with our... [54:20] Our tweets here. You sent yours. I need to re-dig in. I just want to check the grammar. You know, it feels like it's on the precipice of going viral. And I've had... [54:30] Some just really bad engagement recently. Okay, bye.