Ep: 115: 1) Music NFT drama explainer with Ladidai 2) Betting (One's Career) on Crypto, and how that might pay off

[00:00] Let me do a quick intro. [00:01] Period. [00:04] Welcome to the Feelings Check-In, a feelings first look at the news of the week. Takes no one asked for on topics everyone's talking about. I'm Natasha Hoskins. I'm Dina Burke. And this is Boys Club. Wait, is it just Boys Club? It's just Boys Club. The Boys Club podcast? No. No. [00:21] Just boys club. [00:22] Guess what? Boys Club is doing our very first conference called Brand New. Dina, what are we going to be talking about? So we're going to be covering a lot of the stuff that we cover on this podcast. Crypto, of course, the new internet, digital culture, emerging technology will be at the Austin proper on March 12th. And we're pulling in some of the smartest people we know. It's going to be very fun. Tickets are now live and they will never be as cheap as they are [00:52] Today, go buy your ticket. Members and zaddy holders get special pricing. And if you aren't a member, you can apply to attend brand new. So go to boysclub.vip backslash brand new link and show notes to get all the details and can't wait to see you in Austin. Yeehaw. Hey, how you doing? I'm doing good. I want to say quickly, thank you for being here. Thank you for listening. We'll be saying this for the next few weeks. [01:18] We have moved to online to a new feed. [01:22] So link in show notes, please go follow it and... [01:27] rate it because it's a brand new fresh little feed that we have started up here with the two online episodes we will be cross posting them for a little bit but then you'll start to miss out on them so just an fyi there and thank you for those who have already followed and shared and all that good stuff today we're doing the feelings check-in and who did we have on so on today's pod we had lottie day music consultant trash comes from trad music world but also is very knowledgeable on what's

[01:57] There was some dust that was kicked up over the past couple of weeks in the music NFT land. People asking... [02:04] why? Lots of people asking why. So we get into that with Lottie and it was a great chat. So stick around, give it a listen. [02:14] Hey, Natasha, what is crypto to you? [02:44] involves risk of loss. Cryptocurrency services are provided to U.S. and U.S. territory customers by Payward Ventures Incorporated, PVI, DBA, Kraken. On today's pod, we have Lottie Day. [02:56] Friend of the pod. Second time appearance. [02:59] So happy to have you. Lottie is a music and media consultant, one of the hardest working women on Twitter, our go to really for a music and tech conversation. So welcome to the show, Lottie. [03:11] Thank you. I'm happy to be back, ladies. So we asked you to come on because have been... [03:17] noticing some drama swirling in the music NFT world and thought... The timeline is ablaze. So... It is ablaze. I'm wondering if you want to give us kind of a lay of the land. We have dug into a couple of different threads that we can dive into later on, but maybe you want to give us just the...

[03:38] foundations and then we can go from there. I say this in jest [03:42] I blame Verite. She started off. So basically what had happened was she went into her Discord and she asked her fans just what is your thought on when you hear the word NFT, not even music NFT, just NFT in general? [03:57] And she had posted, [03:59] a photo essentially of everyone's responses and they were overwhelmingly negative. [04:05] NFTs are a scam, they're confusing. [04:07] I don't know why they are, I don't know why they're important, they're bad for the environment, yada yada yada." She was just like, "Hey, [04:13] I don't know if anyone takes the time to talk to Web2 fans [04:18] But this is how they feel about NFTs. [04:20] So think about that. Yeah, as you're building. I will say one just one important context for listeners who might not be familiar with Verite. She's an artist, a musician, and she comes from the regular world and has interestingly, I think, [04:36] done a lot of experimentation in web three tooling. She's done a couple of different NFT stuff. She's done some stuff with IYK, which is NFC chip. So she's, I would say of the few people to be able to like speak into the, [04:50] this world and with experience like she's she's definitely has a track record she's tried a lot of stuff as an awesome person and she's one of the very few i just want to make that note because she's someone who is a touring musician she's had a lot of success [05:03] in the traditional music industry, but also has had [05:05] a lot of success in the world of web3 and that's rare. Yeah.

[05:10] For the record, we love her. She dated one of our parties. We love her. And also think that what this survey that she put out to her fans is... [05:19] even [05:20] those negative like it's it's important for us to all look at it with [05:24] Sober eyes to say like this is what's going on. Okay, so so that's where we start she kind of cracks open a [05:30] pandora's box unbeknownst to her and unbeknownst to the rest of us okay so what happens next all right so i want to say about a week after that if even [05:42] There is this really awesome duo called Fly Out of Boss. [05:46] you know, Web2 artists, they're signed in a joint venture to Atlantic and they release their [05:52] drop on sound. [05:54] And, you know, they go on Twitter, they're like, "We're on the blockchain, bitch." And I'm like, me, being me, it's like, "Yay, this is so exciting." [06:02] And everyone else being normal is just like girls know. [06:07] And angrier words than that. [06:11] And then I want to say within less than 24 hours, they stopped the drop. [06:16] And they, you know, delete everything. And then they tweet like, hey, guys, you know, they basically... [06:21] tweet like an apology to their fans, just say, we're going to be more cognizant of what we're doing in this space, like moving forward. And the world of Love Theory Music [06:29] Has not been the same ever since. [06:34] So I saw their apology tweet and I have a lot of compassion for them as well. A million percent.

[06:43] You and I both. [06:44] trying and then getting such backlash and being like, actually not worth it to us. No, at all. And I'm sure. Listen, I don't know if people have been on the other end of like millions or thousands or hundreds or whatever. [06:58] of Twitter users being upset with you. It's not fun. So what was the primary criticism around their drop? It was a number of different things, but again, if you look at that tweet by Verite, [07:12] A lot of the complaints from their fans were [07:15] practically directly [07:17] aligned with those of Verite's fans. So, you know, it's a scam. [07:21] It's not good for the environment. There's no point of them. So it was interesting because just reading through the comments, the fans weren't necessarily coming from a place of judgment. It was more so like a place of concern, like, we don't want you guys being involved with this because it's not. [07:35] Good. Wow. That's so disappointing. I think what's really hard about something like this and also in [07:42] What I... [07:43] really respect and Verity is there's this moment where [07:49] experimentation within technology for artists is really possible. There's all these new tools, there's all these things that they can use, but it's a huge risk for these artists to do it. And it puts their reputation on the line. They're opening up the vector for attack in all these different ways. And I think what was clear about the past week is that you really have to have conviction in some way. Maybe it's not exactly about music NFTs or the medium being exactly

[08:19] but I think a lot of the rhetoric has been around a real negative response from fans and these artists either having to say like oh I have a ton of conviction about this and this exact container might not be right but I think this experimentation is important for us to get to the right expression of what this new era for artists and musical artists can be but I think if you don't have that conviction then you're left like I think this duo was left like completely surprised by [08:49] totally and then they're in a position where they're like I like I don't have a horse in this race we're just trying stuff out and if this is going to be the response then like we're [08:58] No problem. No worries if not. A million percent. And I really felt also for so many of the web3 music artists in this space because they felt like that reaction was... [09:07] an indictment on everything that they've worked so hard for and that they've accomplished and [09:12] And I can understand how it's upsetting and triggering to feel like [09:16] these you know web2 artists who have no [09:19] right to even like be here came in and like mess things up for us and i'm just like guys hold on yeah so they delete everything they walk it back then what has the response from sort of like music nft twitter and all of the think boys what are people saying girl where do i start overall [09:38] I have been [09:40] I don't want to say disappointed, but maybe like a little bit dismayed by some of the response by MusicNFT or Web3Music Twitter, because I don't think people...

[09:51] understand what it's like [09:54] to be [09:54] a Web 2 artist in that position. [09:58] And I had tweeted this around the time that it happened that [10:02] it's really important to have empathy for all parties involved, because it's a learning experience for everyone. [10:08] for the artists, for the artist team. [10:11] for the platform, the platform team, like for the community, there's so many, [10:16] layers to this and obviously it's [10:20] was [10:21] upsetting, disappointing, and a little bit scary for everyone. [10:24] So before people come in with like all these different judgments, [10:28] keep that [10:29] in mind. I think that that's an important lesson just across the board. I think we should all be approaching Twitter with more empathy. Hello. I know that's not the best platform for that, but it would be better if it was. So. [10:41] There are a couple of different [10:43] angles, right? So there is one very prominent [10:47] music manager and builder in the space, I'll just say it, Dauda, who's Grimes manager, who was just like, [10:52] "Music NFTs are a failure, point blank period." Like this is a direct quote. [10:57] And a lot of people were very triggered and upset by that. [11:00] Then there were also folks who were just like, [11:02] You know, this is why... [11:04] web2 artists shouldn't even be in the space if they're of like a certain caliber, if they have a certain amount of [11:10] fame and notoriety because that sheds a bad light [11:13] on what's happening in their space and they don't understand. That's fair. [11:17] A lot of folks are basically saying, you know, it's really an onboarding issue, like how much they actually

[11:21] know and understand about what was happening in this space. [11:24] or did they have the tools to educate their fans about what was happening in the space? The answer to that is no. There's a lot of opinions, but I think what was really [11:33] compelling about the Verite thread was it was deeply insightful about this is how people are feeling about this. This is what we're taking away from it. This is how this will affect. [11:43] artists everywhere and there was it felt fresh compared to some of the other stuff. Veritas throughout I think everybody in Web3 music and anyone building in the creator economy in Web3 in general [11:53] needs to check that out. It's almost like she had like a mini focus group, like in her Discord, right? It's like these are... [11:59] the unfiltered opinions of people who [12:02] have [12:03] basically zero understanding of what's happening in the space. And if you have an interest, [12:07] in reaching these people, then you should pay attention. One of the things that I took from Dauda, who's Grimes' manager's tweet thread, which all of these threads link in bio, they're worth sifting through. Yeah. But I think one of the big things [12:20] from him was the web three music or music nft movement over the past couple years has been largely driven by speculation 99 or whatever 75 of the behavior has been [12:35] people buying some sort of digital asset and hoping to be able to sell that for more money than they bought it later on. That's just pure speculation play. And honestly, that is mirrored in the rest of crypto as well. And I think Verite acknowledges this as well, is that there's like a one or 2% of fans that are interested in a true patronage model, where they are interested in truly supporting their artists, but that by and large, it's been speculation driven. And that

[13:05] when something doesn't work is nothing to be sad about. That's how you learn and can understand what could work. The failure is the way the technology is being applied to the medium. So he goes on to say that like what we've done, the experiments that we've run, the products that we've run like haven't worked. Okay. [13:18] what can work? What problem areas exist that feel like the technology that we're looking at could have a unique solve for? And one of the things that I'm seeing is rights management. For artists and creators, this solves a really tidy problem, which is being able to show rights and provenance over a particular digital asset. And you can write that into the smart contract. That does get, ideally in a perfect world, abstracted away from the end user that they're just listening to something or interacting with something and they have no idea that there's [13:48] smart contract underneath it that has the rights written into it but that's one of the main things that he identified as like okay this still feels like it has legs I'm curious how you feel about that [13:58] So... [13:59] The reason why I appreciate Dauda's stance on this is because he's someone, unlike most people in the weapon music space, who has a very [14:09] deep knowledge and has a lot of experience in the traditional music industry. [14:14] That's why he's even able to talk about that. Ask most people on Web3 about music licensing, they have no clue. Ask them about IP, they have no clue. Copyright, they have no clue. That's why people were out here sampling prints. [14:24] and Drake and their music and putting it on chain and thinking that that was okay. Because they have no idea. I agree. [14:32] with that particular use case. And I think overarchingly, I agree with his stance.

[14:37] And in terms of also [14:40] again, not necessarily mass adoption, but, you know, maybe something that a label or a publisher or a PRO or what have you would want to adopt. [14:48] that is super useful, right? Because right now, [14:52] behind the scenes when it comes to royalties and rights management, that stuff is very messy. [14:57] very archaic. There are so many things that can go wrong and there's no way to be able to hold people accountable because none of these things are transparent. So the technology in and of itself can really lend itself to cleaning that up. [15:09] I think related to what you're saying about like people have no idea how this industry works, the traditional music industry works related to that is sure, okay, rights management, licensing, blockchain solves that. But the players that are owning that infrastructure and that stack right now have no incentive to move over to a blockchain enabled licensing or royalty management system. So it's like a hugely uphill battle that is happening. [15:36] maybe unrealistic to tackle. Yeah. So it's one of those things, right? If you can show a Universal Music or a BMG [15:47] Hey. [15:48] By adopting this technology, this is how you can make money more quickly, more often, and how all of the talent on your roster can also make money more quickly, more often. [15:59] Then they'll be like, maybe I should check this out. Right. Because at the end of the day, it's like, let's be honest, it's all about. [16:05] cash flow. How often can I get it and how much? And if they're getting less,

[16:10] because it's transparent and permissionless and instantaneous, they're not going to do it. Because like you said, what's the incentive? [16:18] Yeah. Another thread that was really interesting is from Jesse Grusak. Yes. One of the insights from this thread, and I'm curious your thoughts on this, quote, Music NFTs attempted to democratize an existing market. Visual NFTs created a new market by allowing digital artists to sell their work and track provenance and authenticate with DRM protection. PFPs are signaling tools that instantly convey something. [16:42] I'm curious what you thought about this thread and maybe this point as well. [16:46] Yeah, me and Jesse went back and forth a little bit on a separate note under a thread LaTosha had posted. [16:54] And he's someone, for those who don't know, he's really awesome, a builder in the space. He's responsible for Ujo, which is very successful and prominent. [17:02] I understand where he's coming from. And it's funny because there's always this argument. [17:08] in Web Free Music, why can't we sell things at the same rate or at the same price as folks in the visual artist community? [17:16] A lot of it comes down to also just the way these things are consumed, right? [17:21] So... [17:22] with visual [17:23] Art, you know, if it's like a Beeple, [17:26] You see it, you like it, you buy it. If it's something like a PFP, it's more so kind of like a membership type card, right? So it's like, okay. [17:33] If I have this, you know, Bored Ape, I'm a part of this community, and I can unlock all of these experiences. Music doesn't necessarily, one, have the same utility.

[17:42] Frankly, most music entities have zero utility. [17:45] It's more so kind of like a patronage thing, like, oh, I want to support this artist. [17:49] And then beyond that, the way we consume music is very, very different than the way we consume visual things, right? So I'm looking at a meme or a gif, I'm just looking at it and going about my day. Music, it's like I need to [18:01] make sure I can listen to it, [18:03] give it a few seconds for me to process it, do I like this? And then after that, then what? Right? I think [18:09] It's difficult because [18:12] we haven't figured out [18:14] a way for [18:15] music NFTs for the most part to make sense [18:18] to the end user. [18:20] So if you talk to most people who [18:22] are in the music NFT space as collectors. Yes, a lot of them are speculative, even if they aren't speculative right away. So it's like, okay, [18:29] I'm not expecting to flip this today. [18:31] But in five years, you know, if I expect this artist to blow up or whatever, this is going to be like a rare thing that I own. But very rarely is there... [18:38] Appoints. [18:39] Yeah. [18:40] a real utility to it. I think one of the things related to that, that was in the Verite thread was about how the underlying tech NFT MP3, for example, is not as important as the behavior and enables. And one of the things that Jesse's pointing to in his tweet, talking about the difference between the music NFT market and the visual NFT market is that the visual NFT market, it created a new behavior. All of a sudden, okay, everyone has these, you know, like it or not, there was the PFP, I get to signal that I own the sigil asset, I'm a part of this community, [19:10] was net new and there was ownership tied to that obviously. And I think that this idea for music NFTs not having found their equivalent is important

[19:22] to acknowledge one thing related to that tweet was about this person that was replying to Verite was talking about like, well, what do you think that people thought about MP3s in the 90s? And she goes on to say like, well, MP3 is a dead format now, but it was... [19:37] a really, really important and critical stepping stone to the digitization of music generally. They were a critical step. [19:46] in what the new behavior is now, which is around streaming music. And so what is the [19:51] NFT equivalent. [19:53] Yeah, no, for sure, because here's the thing, right? Streaming killed digital downloads for the most part, right? iTunes is like still there, right? It's like people still [20:01] do whatever, but streaming by and large is the number one way [20:06] that folks consume music. Spotify is the top provider for audio experiences, right? So Web3 has not done that. [20:16] Web3 has not killed Spotify. It's in no way a threat to Spotify. Even if I buy an artist's music entity, I will still listen to it on a DSP. Right? And that's not to say that it hasn't been disruptive at all, but it hasn't [20:31] ended the last era the same way streaming did to [20:34] digital downloads in iTunes. [20:36] and CDs and all that. [20:37] - Right? - Yeah. Okay, well, closing up here, [20:41] Lottie, if... [20:42] I'd love to hear from you if I was a musical artist in this moment in time with this technology and also this... [20:51] environment and the brand of crypto

[20:57] What would be your suggestion to artists who are, [21:01] looking at this and curious and scared and wanting to figure out if there's a place for them to play or not. Okay. So here's the thing. [21:08] When it comes to music, I look at it on a spectrum. It goes from web to [21:13] to WebGrade. [21:14] Web2 is Spotify, Bandcamp, and all that. [21:19] Web3 is, you know, like catalog... [21:23] and adjacent. [21:25] Web 2.75 is Sound, right? Because Sound now has email and credit card. [21:30] Web 2.5, I would say, is like Sona, because you can sign up on email and stream, but you can also collect things using ETH. [21:38] Web 2.25 [21:41] Interestingly enough, there isn't really anyone in that space. [21:44] something to think about. [21:46] Though I would say probably for that would be [21:50] Even, if you don't know Even, you should check them out, even.biz. [21:53] There's also [21:56] myth, which is kind of more like creator economy, but music artists use them. Here's the thing, if you're an artist, [22:03] that comes from the traditional [22:06] music world. [22:08] you have traditional music fans. [22:10] And if you want to enter the Web3 music space, you have to do so very strategically in a way that doesn't ruffle feathers. [22:17] How do you not ruffle feathers? [22:19] You choose platforms that are on-chain, [22:22] that [22:23] are on chain, under the hood. [22:26] So your fans are not even gonna know that it's on-chain. And so people don't like that. They're like, "Oh, it's deceptive, it's just that." I don't care.

[22:33] I just call it good marketing. [22:35] and good EUA UX in terms of [22:38] the understanding [22:39] of what works [22:41] with [22:42] traditional music fans. If I was [22:44] a traditional music artist. [22:46] looking to [22:48] maximize [22:49] the use of Web3, [22:52] There's one platform that I recommend for music. [22:56] And that would be even because they've done a fantastic job [23:00] of essentially everything they have is music entities, right? You go on the site, [23:05] You sign up with your email. [23:07] If you want to support an artist, you can pay as much as you want. They have a pay what you want model, so you can pay like $5 to get this digital download that you can play within their system. [23:17] And then with that, you get access to an exclusive group chat with that artist. If you pay up to, say, $25, you also can get [23:25] A tote bag, up to 50. You can get a t-shirt, up to 100. You get access to a meet and greet. [23:30] That's super smart because it plays into [23:33] experiences. [23:35] for the most part, [23:36] There are like two things. [23:38] that fans care about. One, obviously the music, and two, [23:42] access to the artists. [23:44] or to things that are within the artist ecosystem. [23:47] even does a really great job [23:50] at capturing that without making it without any friction whatsoever. [23:55] IYK is another great one. IYK has like a little... [23:59] NFC chip like on their merch. [24:01] So you can like scan that to like unlock things, but you don't know it's an NFT. It's just like a chip. You're like, oh, I scanned this with my phone and then I get extra stuff.

[24:09] but also you could just get the t-shirt and be fine. [24:11] Right? Yeah. [24:13] It's like no one has to download MetaMask. [24:15] No one has to go to Coinbase. No one has to have ETH. [24:17] amen lottie so nice thank you so much of course i appreciate y'all lots of lots of hard questions for the music nfg folks but i appreciate you walking us through that uh through the world of it [24:29] When you're first getting started with crypto, it can be scary. Am I doing this right? Is this just like my bank or trading app? How is it new and different? Well, that's why we love Kraken. They have a 24-7, 365 customer support team that's there to hold your hand all along the way. This isn't a 9-to-5 Monday to Friday bank. This is crypto. It's all the time. Anyone's welcome. Open door policy. Come one, come all. Try something new at kraken.com backslash boys club. Not investment advice. Crypto trading involves risk of loss. [24:59] are provided to U.S. and U.S. territory customers by Payward Ventures, Incorporated, PVI, DBA, Kraken. Feelings. [25:07] Some personal feelings. [25:09] Okay, so... [25:11] I've had... [25:12] A couple of feelings happening simultaneously. So just journey with me here. Feeling soup. Feeling soup. So... [25:21] layer one of the feeling. [25:23] is [25:24] looking around the internet, [25:26] looking around, [25:28] The world... [25:29] and just having a feeling of like nothing is new under the sun. [25:34] We're all talking about the same stuff. We're all highlighting the same people. We're all doing the same thing. We're just regurgitating content and memes and it's all...

[25:46] unoriginal, brutal, and like just feeling really present to that and not wanting to contribute to that in the world where I'm just like, what is the point of. [25:58] having our own commentary on something that everybody else in the world is talking about. It seems sort of silly. You know what visual comes to mind for me is [26:10] Have you ever watched WALL-E? [26:12] I've not, but you've talked to me about it a lot. So I feel like I've watched it. Um, anyway, there's, uh, Wally, I guess is a commentary on. [26:21] capitalist consumption in many ways and technology by Pixar. [26:27] And anyway, humans end up leaving earth because it's like overrun with trash basically. And there's an equivalent of like internet, uh, [26:37] content trash nouns that you're just like piling stuff onto, piling data onto. And I don't want to, I don't want to do that. Totally. I don't think anybody wants to do, like, I think if you looked inside anybody's heart, nobody wants to do that. But yes, that's a perfect visual. And so that's like one track that I've been thinking a lot about, not like sad about it, but just like genuinely looking at it and being, is this the work I want to do? Is this the work that I think boys club should be doing? Just what about this [27:07] to have in the world. That's one bucket. Taking a cue from the music NFTs conversation where it's like, let's just look at it. [27:13] And let's be really honest about what's working and what's not working. I appreciate that. So that's one.

[27:17] The second has been, which we've talked about over the past few weeks over the feelings check-in, and we've always sort of had this feeling around the crypto of it all and it being a really toxic industry, a thing that I feel in some circles embarrassed to say out loud and questioning what's here and if there is something more important and useful in the world. [27:41] And if it is the future of the new internet and consumer internet, and that feels a little bit more depressing to be like my whole career is now, not my whole career, but like a big part of my career is now like steeped in this thing and it being untouchable to a lot of people and being uninteresting to a lot of people. And that, [28:01] Bing. [28:02] A feeling. Now the positive, which is what this feelings check-in is about. So hang with me. Is that... [28:10] In the analyzing of there's nothing new that is under the sun or that we're doing or that anybody is doing. [28:17] What is different is the crypto. And so [28:22] when I look at very successful people, when you look at any person who's like [28:26] deeply successful, they took risks in the things that they were interested in, the things that they were talking about, the things that they were investing in, where they worked, what they did with their careers and their lives. And in the moment that they were doing it, it was very unsexy. [28:41] And it was... [28:42] very risky to be putting their bets on whatever industry it is that they decided before it was cool or before it was financially

[28:52] attractive for this person to be [28:54] betting on a specific thing. Yeah. And you can look at a million examples of that where early adopters and successful innovators or entrepreneurs or whomever decided, [29:07] There's something here that other people aren't seeing that I see some days and I'm deciding that I'm going to go all in on that thing. And then it really pays off. [29:17] for those people. And there's a [29:19] bunch of examples of people doing that and it not paying off at all. And that's reality. And that's totally something that could happen here. I've had a hopeful shift in, um, [29:29] my convictions about what is possible with crypto and where there's an opportunity and where that rubs up against what makes us unique and what makes Boys Club different in the way that we're approaching all the work that we're doing every day. And there's a huge chance that it doesn't work. And then everybody looks back at crypto in 10 years and still says that was so scammy and stupid. And why did anybody think there was anything there? There's also another big chance that. [29:56] It does. And that the... [30:00] cringe that I feel when I think about working in crypto outside of my actual day-to-day work really [30:07] is a risk in doing something that's unpopular in the moment. And, and, [30:11] It makes me feel a lot better. It gives me some solace about... [30:15] The work. [30:16] I like that. I like that a lot. I think that's a really positive and useful way to frame it. [30:21] It also is very classic investing frameworks as well. This isn't an investing podcast. This is not investing advice. I'm not even talking about investing. I love how you keep saying that, like each episode last three times.

[30:35] Yeah, I've definitely been having the feeling over the past couple days wondering if... [30:39] I want to be the flag bearer for an industry that I don't believe in a lot of it. [30:45] Yeah. And I think a lot of it is grifter stuff and a joke and deeply unserious. And like we're doing so much work to like change the narrative around this industry. And I'm like sometimes the night I wake up and I'm like, this is what I'm. [31:01] going to bat for like these people. I think I read something the other day that I'll link to it in the show notes here. It was in the Rolling Stone and it was about a weird internet and like creating a weird internet and going back to an internet that isn't flattened by the algorithm and has weird and interesting communities and subcultures. And that exists today, of course, but that because [31:31] Thank you. [31:31] Twitter or whatever you may call it like there's we've been flattened by the algorithm and there's like a monoculture that's emerged around it and like obviously a few people own it and that creates all sorts of problems and weird incentives and dynamics and it's about. [31:47] getting back to a human scale [31:51] Ownable internet and I think that that's what I'm interested in and I think that web three or crypto or whatever you want to call it is Just rails towards that end and I think the more that we can frame it in [32:02] this is what's possible and this is what is the ideal and how can crypto how can web three or an ownable internet tools that allow you to own parts of the internet allow you to do that better is a conversation that i'm interested in being a steward of and being involved in and i think that there's like kind of like an anti-big tech conversation that really is the conversation around web three that i don't know that's more interesting to me go off genuinely that's that that's that

[32:32] talk to you later bye